{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/970",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "whorl",
  "thread": {
    "id": 970,
    "subject": "Digest whorl.v011.n025",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2000-08-23T23:45:36+00:00",
    "last": "2000-08-23T23:45:36+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<whorl-v0011-0164@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "akt",
        "address": "akt at attglobal.net"
      },
      "date": "2000-08-23T23:45:36+00:00",
      "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v011.n025",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "From Alex\n:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Hmmm...  Alga's mapping to Origen's ideas is interesting, but I'm not\nconvinced.  Universalism doesn't strike me as being particularly\nWolfean, given the number especially of short stories that are quite\ncomfortable in damning a protagonist (\"Bed and Breakfast\" certainly\ndoesn't carry much hint of demonic free will).  Also, despite some\nobvious intentional points, a simple mapping of the inhumans to demons\nor the Neighbors to angels seems false--the Neighbors seem more like\npost-Urth Severian, of the \"human\" order of creation, but\ntransfigured.  The inhumi are different in that their nature is a\nmirror of their prey (their will is reduced but present) but they are\nin this a biological analogue also of Wolfe's chems and machine\nintelligences--a mirror in this case of their prey rather than their\nmakers, of course.  This doesn't strike me as very Origenist, in that\nexcept in Severian's visit to get the New Sun I don't think we see\nanything that is really meant to be of an angelic nature."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "OK, I didn't say that it was a template, only that it reminded me of\nOrigen's system. Regard: a dynamic system is inherently more interesting\nthan a static one, and even the Rat admited that Wolfe as a novelist\nmight be attracted to Origen's ideas while rejecting them as a believer.\nA plain view of Wolfe's system here seems to me to follow my simplified\nOrigenic patern. But I'm not going to fight for it."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "And by the way, unless I'm recalling incorrectly (which is quite\npossible) Origen wasn't precisely \"consigned to hell\"--a number of his\npropsitions (from De Principis mostly, I think) were condemned, but a\nnumber of church figures have defended him as a fundamentally orthodox\nfellow carried away with intellectual speculation at times, and\ncertainly no rebel against Church authority in his day."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Au contraire, mon frere, they consigned him to eternal flames at the\nSynod of Constantiople in 543 and then, just to make sure he didn't\nescape from his fate, again in 553, 680, 787 and 869. That's a crispy\nkind of guy.\n\nFrom Tim Bolas:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Just a note on Origen.  His heresy charges did not\nhave to do with the redeemability or not of demons\n(that is in line with Orthodox Theology), rather with\nthe \"pre-existence\" of souls and a sort of cosmic\nrecycling that Alga alluded to, among other things.\nOrigen was only considered a heretic towards the end\nof his life.  His early teachings are still held in\nregard among theologians."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I never said it did, only that it was a fact. Of course they are. They\nmake a lot of sense theologically.\n\n-akga\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}