Urth Net

83 messages · 38 conversations · 1982 – 1986

Before the list

The Urth list opens in 1996 and Whorl in November of the same year. The Book of the New Sun came out between 1980 and 1983, so its first readers had nowhere to argue about it but Usenet, and this is where they did it — net.sf-lovers, recovered from the Henry Spencer tapes at the University of Toronto. Every Wolfe conversation in that group, thirteen years before the archive proper begins.

The list knew about this and could not reach it. In December 1999 Ron Hale-Evans posted one message from here to the Urth list — Donn Seeley's of 23 November 1984, which he had, he said, “kept and treasured since the early Eighties” — and David Lebling wrote back asking for a copy, having lost his own. That message is below, in its thread, with everything around it.

CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH + 1?1982-09-30

donn1982-09-30
I was glancing at an ANALOG on the newstands and found a review of PEACE by Gene Wolfe (an excellent little 'novel', by the way, although I'm not sure that 'novel' is the proper term for it given its structure of overlapping and interlaced short stories). I was in a hurry and didn't get a chance to finish the review but it seemed to imply in an aside that CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH will not be the last part of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN; can anybody tell me if this is for real and what the name of the last book really is? I like this series so much I actually have all of the volumes published so far, in hardback (and I have two copies of SHADOW OF THE TORTURER).

Book of the New Sun1982-10-25 · 3 messages

tim1982-10-25
I've heard that "Citadel of the Autarch", to be released in November or December, is the fourth and final volume of Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. I didn't know that the third had come out; can anyone tell me its title and publisher? Thanks. For those of you who don't know, the first two books are "The Shadow of the Torturer" and "The Claw of the Concili- ator", and are available wherever you get sf paperbacks. They are impressionistic science fantasy of the kind Moorcock would like to be able to write (and I love Moorcock). I strongly recommend them to anyone whose likes extend beyond Asimov, Hogan, Clement, and other "pure" hard-sf writers.
burton1982-10-27
There was a convention here in Indy the weekend of July 4th, and there I saw the hardbound edition of the 3rd book of the New Sun, called "the Sword of the Lictor". I haven't yet seen it paperback. I agree with Maroney, both about Wolfe and Moorcock. The Book of the New Sun is excellent, although you do feel a little confused by the setting, and also the beginning of the first book (for that matter, the beginning of the second book) sort of jumps you into the middle of something, then later goes back and catches you up. Furthermore, a lot of background is left unexplained for a long time (do you agree, Tim?), so that you very slowly begin to catch on to all the references, terms, names, etc. This to me was the only drawback to reading it. As far as I know, this book has not been discussed much on the net; any particular reason? Doug Burton
ARPAVAX:kalash1982-10-27
The Third book in the "Book of the New Sun" is "The Sword of the Lictor". It is published by Simon and Schuster (under the timescape imprint). It is scheduled to come out in paperback sometime in dec. The forth book ("Citidal of the Autarch") was supposed to be out in nov/dec, but was canceled (no reason given) and should be out in January. Joe

How can I get Wolfe's CASTLE OF THE OTTER?1982-11-03

donn1982-11-03
Should have titled this note THE ADDRESS OF THE PUBLISHERS... I heard about THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER through the ARPA SF-LOVERS people; apparently it's about the writing of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN and it sounds so interesting that I'd really like to get it. Unfortunately the address of the publishers is in SF-LOVERS' archives which I don't have access to... So does some brave soul out there who DOES have SF-LOVERS access or was at ChiCon to hear the original announcement know how to get in touch with "Ziesing Bros."??? Help out a poor autochthon from the southern wastes... (actually I'm an eclectic on my mom's side, but it's supposed to be a secret).

Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun1982-12-11 · 2 messages

SRI-UNIX1982-12-11
I have now twice read the first volume (THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER) in a vain attempt to convince myself that it is the beginning of an earth-shaking effort or "the best SF I've read all year (Le Guin)". It would appear to be the beginning of just another quest story and having just finished LORD OF THE RINGS for the first time, I don't think I can handle yet another of these. Could someone out there who has read the entire tetralogy and admires it please explain what he/she thinks is so marvelous about it? Mike "the Monk" Urban, are you listening? I'll admit that Wolfe handles his language better than most SF authors I've read but the story itself seems extremely drawn out and the characters don't catch my fancy. Maybe it's just that I don't much care for sword and sorcery and quests. Stuart
thomas1982-12-13
I'm not sure I'd call it a "quest" story. It might be, in a sense, but Severian really doesn't know what he's looking for (if anything). Maybe he's searching for the meaning of life, I'm not sure. Among the things which make the series great for me are the language and the wonderful description of a future/past world. Wolfe manages to evoke wondefully clear images of the fantastic world in which Severian finds himself. You can feel the tremendous weight of the (mostly ignored, but everpresent) immense past history pressing down upon the people of his time. Everything has been done, forgotten, rediscovered, and forgetten again. The world is running down to an end (or, as he seems to hope, a new beginning). This background, developed only implicitly in places, provides a rich backdrop for the story. The storyline in the first book seems a little thin, but only because of the wealth of subplots it begins. There are no extraneous incidents recalled, no characters introduced as mere padding. It is a difficult book to read, the motives of the characters are frequently hidden or inexplicable and the description of some events are unexpectedly cut short. You have to read every word, or you risk missing something important. But, then, real life is often this way, also. The "Book of the New Sun" is Severian's memoirs, and, although he has perfect recall, he is still human, not omniscient, and can't know everything. I'm not sure I would classify it as "sword and sorcery", there is very little sorcery, and what "sorcery" there is is really forgotten science. Severian certainly carries a sword, but members of the Autarch's guard carry advanced energy weapons. I'm not sure it's classifiable as anything except "Speculative Fiction", and only that because there is no other category which can hold it. It is definitely not the escapism that so much SF is - if you are to understand the book on more than a superficial level, you must think about it, be willing to ferret out that which is not said directly. If you're not sure you will like it, borrow a copy from a friend, or the library. The first book is not the whole story, it was only published as a multi-volume set because the publishing industry will not put out a single book that long. (Except for Michener, of course.) By all means, though, give it another chance. =Spencer

THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH and THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER1983-02-11

donn1983-02-11
Gene Wolfe's tetralogy THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN is now complete with the publication of THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH. CITADEL follows the ex-torturer Severian, shocked by his loss at the end of the previous volume (THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR), as he wanders northward and becomes embroiled in the war with the Ascians. It rapidly becomes apparent that the war is more than just a struggle for territory, but its full complexity does not become apparent until a series of not-quite- coincidences leads to Severian's accession to the position of Autarch of the realm. The book concludes with Severian's regal return to the Citadel in which he was born and raised as a torturer, where he resolves to attempt to bring forth the New Sun, just as the former Autarch tried to do, but failed. The book also explains more of the background to the peculiar Christian/Hindu mythology, and even provides a science-fictional rationale for some of it. All in all an excellent book and worth buying in hardcover (as I did). Most of the important threads of plot from the previous volumes are wrapped up, but alas we do not find out whether Severian succeeds in his final task; if this matters to you, then you will want to read the (projected) sequel THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN when it comes out. If like me you would like to know even more about the world of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN, there is yet another book, THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER (Ziesing Bros.: Willimantic, Connecticut, 1982, 117pp.). The title of this book derives from a mistaken announcement of CITADEL in Locus magazine; Wolfe couldn't resist using the name because he knew the perfect epigram for it (from THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS). Wolfe explains why he wrote the book: "When a writer has the gall to do an entire book, even a very small one, about the writing of a previous book, it's more or less customary for him to announce that he's acting in response to innumerable and insistent demands. Unfortunately, I'm not... Why do it, then? Out of a sort of blind optimism. Every writer worth his two-cents-a-word hopes, in some little corner of his mind at least, that somewhere out there, there are a few people who will do more than read his book, pitch it away, and reach for the next one -- people who will read and reread, study the cover, perhaps, in search of some clue, shelve the book and later take it out again, just to hold. There was a time when I could put the palm of my hand flat on the front of a tattered paperback called THE DYING EARTH and feel the magic seeping through the cardboard: Turjan of Miir, Liane the Wayfarer, T'sais, Chun the Unavoidable. Nobody I knew had so much as heard of that book, but I knew it was the finest book in the world." Needless to say, THE DYING EARTH by Jack Vance and its sequel THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD are among my absolute favorite books and there are more than a few similarities between NEW SUN and DYING EARTH... an interesting bit of trivia. More trivia in THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER: * NEW SUN originated as an unpublished novella called THE FEAST OF SAINT CATHERINE. * The story grew from a novella to a novel to a trilogy to finally a tetralogy... * NEW SUN as a whole went through two drafts before the first volume came out, in a situation not unlike THE LORD OF THE RINGS -- Wolfe wanted to be able to change the first book on the basis of plot events in the last book... * There is a chapter "Words Weird and Wonderful" that glosses all the strange words in THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER on a chapter by chapter basis. * There are also chapters on writing, on publishing, on warfare in Severian's time and also a chapter containing a set of jokes as told by various characters from NEW SUN. Yours trivially,

THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH and THE C1983-02-15

mclure1983-02-15
I didn't much care for Shadow of the Torturer. Wolfe's style is uncomfortably dense and distant. A good criticism of New Sun was voiced in a LOCUS review recently.

The shadow of the Torturer1983-06-03

Arturo Perez1983-06-03
I'm sorry folks but I have to agree with Mclure on the Gene Wolfe novel. I tend to read to the end anything I pick up but I could not finish Torturer. I think the writing style was very bad and the story didn't seem to be headed anywhere. It was a waste of my time..

Re:The shadow of the Torturer1983-06-05 · 3 messages

tim1983-06-05
Gene Wolfe is one of the brightest new talents in speculative fiction. His best work is the four-volume "Book of the New Sun", consisting of The Shadow of the Torturer, The Claw of the Conciliator, The Sword of the Lictor, and The Citadel of the Autarch. The second volume won the Nebula Award, and the third and fourth are likely candidates for the same award. The protagonist of the series is Severian, a young and quietly insane journeyman of the despised Torturer's Guild (the Guild of Seekers of Truth and Penitence). The setting is a time so far in the future that today is less than a memory, with even our legends forgotten. Mankind has flourished and fallen over the millions of years. The setting is surrealistic medieval. The influence of Vance's excellent The Dying Earth is clear, but it would be a mistake to label Wolfe as in any way derivative. This is probably not a work for people who only read science fiction or fantasy. The literary and mythological allusions are thick, though never really annoyingly so, and the style is far from the usual matter-of-fact description of sf, full of ambiguity and unusual metaphor. If the books seem to drag, you're probably not paying enough attention -- there is more on many pages than in entire chapters of most fantasies. I can't see how to give a useful plot synopsis without spoiling it for you, so I can only recommend it highly. Tim Maroney
cfv1983-06-08
I wouldn't exactly call Wolfe a 'new' talent. I was reading him in high school a long time ago... He has just never made (or wanted) the spotlight before New Sun came out. Calling his work 'SF' or 'Fantasy' is invalid. He has written a major work of literature that happens to use some of the settings of the genres. It is in my mind the most important piece of literature I have seen published since Tolkien, and I think that it is better than Tolkien (heresy?) chuck
tim1983-06-11
When I said that Wolfe was a new talent, I was not considering the novella "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" or any of his fine earlier work, but the new stuff really makes the old look sick. Like you, I read "Cerberus" in high school. Wolfe seems far better than Tolkien to me. I think Tolkien is vastly overrated. Tim Maroney

shadow of the torturer and thomas covenant1983-06-19

laura1983-06-19
Well I finally read SotT. It was my eighth time trying to read it, and I didnt have anything else to read, but I still cant believe I got it down. It seems that everywhere I go and talk about science fiction people are horrified that I have never read SotT or "cant believe" that I stopped reading TC after the third book, and only read *it* because I got all three as a Christmas present from my brother. To all of you who are shaking your head at my obvious brain-damage, I can tell you exactly why I find both series so hard to read: No matter how beautiful and well-crafted the writing, if the main character could drop dead on the next page and I would feel nothing then I am not enjoying the book. Anybody *else* feel that way? Incidentally, Gene Wolf is not the first person who has "lit'ry style" and has written fantasy. Peter S. Beagle comes to mind immediately, but Poul Anderson also has written some of this. Then again, Poul Anderson has written *everything*... Laura Creighton

shadow of the torturer and thomas co1983-06-20 · 2 messages

bvi1983-06-20
Hmmm... No, the only correlation between Donaldson and Wolfe that I share is that they're both hard to get into. However, whereas I *forced* myself to finish the 1st Donaldson book, and had absolutely *no* interest in reading any more in the sequence, I found I couldn't put Shadow of the Torturer down once I got about 1/4 of the way into it. It does take a bit of getting used to, because Wolfe writes in a deliberately obscure manner that forces you to use more imagination than most other SF books. I found that Severian and the whole culture portrayed in the book fascinating; I finished SoT in one sitting and ran out the next day to buy the other three books, which I finished post haste. I only wish there were more! Beatriz Infante
cfv1983-06-21
I seem to have had a similar response to SotT. It took me about 3 months to finish the book, but the first quarter of the book took all but 4 days of it. It was not that I didn't like the book, but it is an involved and thought provoking book and you have to be in the proper frame of mind. If you don't feel like involving yourself in the book, it just doesn't work. I have a similar response to movies: some days I feel like Fellini, some days I feel like the Marx Brothers. One thing that I noticed (someone out there want to back me up on this?) when reading it was that the feel of the New Sun books was very close to the works of Kafka. As it turned out, I was reading some of Kafka's short works about the time I read SotT, so it might just be a reaction to that, but it almost felt like he was using a work like The Castle as a philosphical base. There is also a lot of classical literature entertwined into the fabric of the story, especially the Greek and Roman mythologies. I haven't read the Covenant yet. Maybe I should... Is it really a good work?

shadow of the torturer and thomas co1983-06-24 · 3 messages

marick1983-06-24
There will be another book by Wolfe set in Urth. It will, I believe, be a group of short stories. One Urth story will appear in the World Fantasy Convention program book.
bvi1983-06-27
Hmmm... No, the only correlation between Donaldson and Wolfe that I share is that they're both hard to get into. However, whereas I *forced* myself to finish the 1st Donaldson book, and had absolutely *no* interest in reading any more in the sequence, I found I couldn't put Shadow of the Torturer down once I got about 1/4 of the way into it. It does take a bit of getting used to, because Wolfe writes in a deliberately obscure manner that forces you to use more imagination than most other SF books. I found that Severian and the whole culture portrayed in the book fascinating; I finished SoT in one sitting and ran out the next day to buy the other three books, which I finished post haste. I only wish there were more! Beatriz Infante
TOPAZ:fantods1983-06-29
Donaldson I can't read, Wolfe I can. Donaldson uses language to obscure and deflate everything--Wolfe seems to somehow make everything more complex and resonant, ecstatically precise. I admit that I couldn't really identify with Severian very much, but I was carried along by other things. Anything I read by Poul Anderson seems to be a pastiche of greatness, but never quite achieves greatness. Please send me examples of his "great" stuff. I probably missed it while I was plowing through one or another of his titles picked out at random. He has a lot of them! Richard

Gene Wolfe's "The Fifth Head of Cerberus"1983-11-01 · 3 messages

Steiner1983-11-01
I found Gene Wolfe's "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" in a bookstore the other day. I haven't heard about this one on the digest. Does anyone have any comments on it? ds
Jerry Leichter1983-11-03
"The Fifth Head of Cerebrus" consists of three stories, each of which could more or less stand alone - the second, with the same title as the book, was originally published as a novella. (I read it in one of Terry Carr's collec- tions; I don't know where else it might have appeared.) The stories take place on one of two twin colony worlds; their common thread is a single charac- ter, a visiting Earch scientist, who is an incidental character in the first story - come to think of it, I guess THAT's the previously published one, the narrator of the second (which is actually a re-telling of a myth told by the conjectural (? - but the reason for the "?" is deep in the story) native residents of one of the planets, and the central character in the third. The book develops slowly. If you really want to get the absolute most out of the first story, read it a little bit at a time over a matter of a couple of days. Overall, it's a marvelous book. It's beautifully written, much of it being in Wolfe's typical "take some hackneyed style and do something totally unexpected with it". Thus, the first story is very much in the Gothic tradition - terrible family secret, etc. By all means, give it a read. -- Jerry
tbray1983-11-07
This book may be the best SF novel ever written, and is a very superior piece of literature by any standards.

"Citadel of the Autarch" and "Fevre Dream"1983-11-05

John Redford1983-11-05
All you people who have been waiting for the last volume of "The Book of the New Sun" to come out before reading any of it no longer have any excuse. The fourth volume, "The Citadel of the Autarch", is now out in paperback. The previous books have all been nominated for Hugos and Nebulas. The only reason they haven't swept all the awards is that the individual books are only pieces of the whole. Read them in order, and fairly soon after one another, because Wolfe has no compunctions about referring to events that took place eight hundred pages before. I wish someone could nominate the entire series for an award, for it would be a welcome change from stuff like "Foundation's Edge" or "Friday". These are competent books, but they are clearly minor compared to Asimov's and Heinlein's earlier works. Wolfe, on the other hand, is at the height of his powers. I won't try to describe the books, since others have already done that, but suffice it to say that Wolfe takes the setting and tone of Vance's "The Dying Earth" (he acknowledges the debt) and fills it with a depth of language and storytelling style that I have never seen in any other author. Another new paperback worth more than its price is "Fevre Dream" by George R. R. Martin. The setting is the Mississippi in the mid 1800's, the heyday of the riverboats. A rambunctious but down-on-his-luck steamboat skipper is made an odd offer by a pale, mysterious stranger. He will pay for the construction of the grandest boat the River had ever seen, in return for the skipper's cooperation in a quest. The stranger is a vampire, and his quest is to find the others of his kind and unite them in an effort to finally make peace with humanity. What better way to search a continent, than by cruising the endless waterways of the Mississippi and it tributaries? Both river life and the vampires are well drawn. For instance, the boats were all woodburning, and so sealed their own fate by denuding of timber all the riverbanks of the Midwest. Or, if vampires are immortal and have the strength of ten, then why haven't they taken over the world? Because the strength of vampire infants makes childbirth a terrible process, which kills the mother as often as not. This sort of background detail makes "Fevre Dream" a very solid adventure novel. /jlr

Gene Wolfe's 'The Fifth Head of Cerb1983-11-07

akhtar1983-11-07
re-Fifth Head of Cerberus: I read the book some considerable time back. The book is divided into 3 parts, with the perspective from which the three parts are written being different. Personally, I found the 1st part to be very, very good and struggled through parts 2 and 3 for the sake of completeness, but found them somewhat uninteresting in comparison. ( I would add that this being a personal opinion should not be taken as a valid judgement of the book etc etc...) I would recommend that you read the book. Pervaze Akhtar

THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH is out in paperback (re-posted)1983-11-18

donn1983-11-18
[This is part of a batch of articles from San Diego that the rest of the net never saw, because our net connection was down -- sorry if you have seen this before, or if the discussion seems dated.] Date: Fri, 21-Oct-83 23:50:34 PDT This book is the last volume of Gene Wolfe's tetralogy, THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. There are some very good reviews in the front, even from the New York Times. My own glowing review has appeared on the net. A warning: if you haven't read the previous three volumes then you probably won't understand CITADEL; of course this is no guarantee that you WILL understand the book if you read the previous volumes... but you're off to a good start. I re-read all four volumes this summer in hardback and learned lots of new things... Buy it. I also read Avram Davidson's strange book THE PHOENIX AND THE MIRROR. I am tickled that there appear to be a couple connections between this book and Wolfe's tetralogy; in particular Davidson's protagonist at one point wears a cloak of 'that nameless color which is darker than black', and mentions the term 'lictor', meaning executioner. Curiously, the word 'lictor' is absent from Wolfe's glossary of words from THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER in THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER; perhaps he considers this word so common as to be not worth describing... (Not that the glossary is anything like complete! And the words are not always for real, merely 'almost always'. A funny definition: 'ONEGARS: My erroneous spelling of ONAGERS. I should look these things up.') Did anyone else like THE PHOENIX AND THE MIRROR? My feelings are somewhat qualified, but there are parts of the book that really shine...

Macavoy, Gene Wolfe1984-01-11

ddb%Shasta1984-01-11
(Caro.PA@PARC-MAXC.ARPA) I liked Tea With the Black Dragon very much, but I thought the writing was only mediocre (compensated for, in my opinion, by the quality of the characters and concepts; plot was also pretty vanilla). All in all, a very satisfactory first novel. Now, Damiano may not have any flaws. I can't think of any. I find this particularly pleasing because of the increase in writing skill from first to second novel (of course, I don't know when either book was actually WRITTEN, just when they were published). (duntemann.wbst@PARC-MAXC.ARPA) Actually, Castle of the Otter is a book containing a collection of essays by Wolfe about the writing of Book of the New Sun, and it's out now (it has been an SFBC selection). The title comes from an interesting sequence -- Locus mistakenly reported that the last volume of Book of the New Sun would be called Castle of the Otter (it's actually Citadel of the Autarch -- I presume Locus got its information verbally in this case). Gene Wolfe liked the title, so he used it.

Castle of the Otter1984-01-16

RTaylor.5581i27TK%RADC-MULTICS1984-01-16
According to the dust jacket, The Castle of the Otter is a collection of essays and insights on how he (GW) came to write the four part journey through the mysterious lands of Urth". It's short (113 pp) including the bio-bibliography. No, I haven't read it yet, it's in my "pile". Roz

Some Gene Wolfe Trivia1984-01-23

donn1984-01-23
Re Borges and Wolfe (Bruce Smith, UNC-Chapel Hill): Here is what Wolfe has to say about Borges: Like the undines, Baldanders is a giant who is still growing. I took his name from Jorge Luis Borges's THE BOOK OF IMAGINARY BEINGS. It isn't one of Borges's best books, but that has never stopped me from stealing from it disgracefully. (Anyway, second-rate Borges is still very good.) In his article on Baldanders, Borges credits the name to one Hans Sachs (1494-1576) of Nuremberg, then states, 'Some ninety years after Sachs's death, Baldanders makes a new appearance in the last book of the picaresque-fantastic novel by Grimmelshausen, THE ADVENTURESOME SIMPLICISSIMUS (1699).' Were Sachs and Grimmelshausen real? Is there actually a such a book as THE ADVENTURESOME SIMPLICISSIMUS? I have no idea. Borges is capable of making up much better books and authors than anyone can find in libraries; for examples, read 'The Approach to Al Mu'tasim' and 'Pierre Menard, Author of Don Quixote,' both of which are to be found in his FICCIONES. (If you do not get a copy of that book, if you fail to read those stories, you will never be sure that I am not making up Borges, a literary effort worthy of the Nobel Prize.) [From THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, pp. 46-47] Wolfe's final parenthetical remark is of course trying to imply that Borges should get the Nobel Prize for inventing Pierre Menard... I have in fact heard of Grimmelshausen -- readers of John Le Carre may recall that the book which poor George Smiley forgets at the club at the start of TINKER, TAILOR, SOLDIER, SPY is an old edition of Grimmelshausen. Re THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN (Jeff Duntemann at Xerox, Wombat at UI): The latest word I have on Wolfe comes from the January LOCUS. The article says that (a) Wolfe has finally quit his job as an editor of PLANT ENGINEERING MAGAZINE and is going to be a full-time writer, (b) he has spent the last year or so writing a new novel entitled FREE LIVE FREE which has not yet been sold to a publisher, and (c) '... I've got the fifth book of the New Sun in first draft, but I haven't done anything on it for months. I plan to pull it out eventually and do the final draft. Comparatively little of the book takes place in the Urth of the Commonwealth. A lot of it takes place in space... The temptation is... to get away from [writing about Urth], because I know the place pretty well and it's time to go and explore a new place.' Isn't LOCUS wonderful? On the home front, I gave my younger brother a full set of THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN in paperback for Christmas, hoping he might like it but without much optimism, and to my surprise when I stayed at his apartment in DC during the Uniforum conference last week, I found that he was well into THE SWORD OF THE LICTOR and apparently enjoying it. When I left he was working on SotL on the couch while his friend was attempting THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER on a chair. Will wonders never cease? Reviews for THE MAN IN THE TREE by Damon Knight, COURTSHIP RITE by Donald Kingsbury, SOMERSET DREAMS by Kate Wilhelm, FEVRE DREAM by George Railroad Martin, RIDDLEY WALKER by Russell Hoban, NO ENEMY BUT TIME by Michael Bishop, and others in a later posting.

Gene Wolfe's new novel FREE LIVE FRE1984-10-18

wombat1984-10-18
If you like getting books through the mail, Mark is a good guy to do business with. He sends out a catalogue once a month, and every now and then he includes his backlist of used and out-of-print books on hand. And he's always enthusiastic about what he's publishing. (If you get his catalogue, you'll get first word on his newest publishing verntures.) (And though I've never been to Connecticut, I must admit I met him at ConStellation.)

FREE LIVE FREE by Gene Wolfe1984-11-04

Donn Seeley1984-11-04
Imagine my amazement when I walked home in the dark in the wee hours of my birthday recently and found a package from Mark Ziesing, sf bookseller and specialty publisher, on the doorstep. Of course it wasn't a birthday present but the result of a check I sent him a month ago for a new book he's published, Gene Wolfe's novel FREE LIVE FREE ($45, 496 pp.). The book is well-produced, profusely illustrated (a drawing by Rich Schindler appears at the head of every one of the 60 chapters, plus there are several full-page drawings by Rick DeMarco, and the (peculiar, to say the least) cover art is by Carl Lundgren), signed (by Wolfe and each of the artists), numbered (mine is #218 out of 750), and genuinely funny... The plot of FREE LIVE FREE is very difficult to summarize; not because a summary would give the game away (which games?!), but because the plot is so crazy that I couldn't possibly say anything without being misleading... and I might not realize I was being misleading until the next time I read the book! No worries about spoilers from me this time. About all I can say is that the book appears (stress the 'appears') to take place in a very run-down part of an unnamed large city, in our own time, and involves a literally bewitching cast of characters from the street. There are science-fictional elements in the story; and there are also fantasy elements, detective-novel elements, spy-novel elements, Dickensian elements, satirical elements, occult elements and probably as many other elements as I could name. It's practically a periodic table. (I should mention that Wolfe also reveals a ghastly weakness for puns and malapropisms.) I can say what this book isn't: it most definitely isn't THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. It also isn't 'The Rubber Bend', 'A Criminal Proceeding' (both from PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING) or 'The Eyeflash Miracles' (from THE ISLAND OF DOCTOR DEATH AND OTHER STORIES AND OTHER STORIES), even though it shares themes and styles with all three stories. The ultimate product is unique. I have some hypotheses about what the book IS (besides 'unique'), but I won't spoil them except to note that the epigraph of the book reads: 'The country needs and, unless I mistake its temper, the country demands bold, persistent experimentation.' -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt And I can't resist quoting at least one short passage: '"Well, blow me down! I just remembered, I got a date wit Olive. What time is it?" 'Stubb glanced at his wrist. "Six forty-five." '"Wow!" Candy looked around at the darkened buildings. "It seems more like midnight. It really got late early tonight." 'Nimo capering ahead of the rest, stopped and threw his arms wide. "Lipstick!" '"Listen," Barnes told Stubb. "I got to get slicked up. She's going to pick me up in front of the Consort at eight." '"Okay, you're not heavy. I bet Candy could do it." 'Nimo dropped to his knees before her. "If I only had a lipstick, I could make stripes on these pajamas. I could give myself a red nose, too." '"Jim, get him away from me! I think he's going to sing that song from 'The Wizard of Oz.'" '"I like it," Little Ozzie announced. "We're o-o-off to see the Wizard, the Wonnerful WizardoFoz!"' Because of the wonderful things he does,

Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun1984-11-09

Ian Kaplan1984-11-09
While reading some of the repartee concerning Harlan Ellison (including those oh so sage comments from the oh so ever present Chuq), I saw several references to Gene Wolfe's four book series, collectively know as "The Book of the New Sun". There seems to be relatively wide agreement that these are excellant books. I too have read all four of the New Sun books, plus most of Wolfe's other books. From this I guess it could be concluded that I like Wolfe, and it is true. I liked the New Sun books because of the writing style, Wolfe's descriptions and the action element of the story. In these books Wolfe has woven an incredibly complex plot whose central point I hoped would be revealed in the last book. For me at least, this did not happen and the books remain enigmatic. In the last few pages of the last New Sun book, "The Citadel of the Autarch", the new Autarch, whose previous carear we have followed, states that he is leaving the Book of the New Sun behind on earth and going to meet the extra-terestrials. While on this flight he will rewrite the book a second time. Since he has perfect memory, he can reproduce the book exactly. He says that if you don't understand the book, read it a second time, just as he is writing it a second time. I have not done this yet. Even though the plot of Wolfe's New Sun seems to be only a collection of strange events, I believe that it is clear that the books contain more. I just have not discovered it yet. The question I pose to you out in net land is what ties the events in the book together. Those of you who believe Wolfe to be such a great writer presumably see what I have missed. If you don't, I wonder if perhaps you are confusing Wolfe's obscureness with literary greatness. I like Wolfe, but I am not yet convienced that he is a great american writer. Well I hope that this will provide much interesting discussion and perhaps some enlightenment for Ian Kaplan Loral Data Flow Group

Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun1984-11-14 · 3 messages

Chris Henrich1984-11-14
[] Ian Kaplan writes: In these books Wolfe has woven an incredibly complex plot whose central point I hoped would be revealed in the last book. For me at least, this did not happen and the books remain enigmatic. In the last few pages of the last New Sun book, "The Citadel of the Autarch", the new Autarch, whose previous carear we have followed, states that he is leaving the Book of the New Sun behind on earth and going to meet the extra-terestrials. While on this flight he will rewrite the book a second time. Since he has perfect memory, he can reproduce the book exactly. He says that if you don't understand the book, read it a second time, just as he is writing it a second time. I found that repeated readings of these books were needed, not only to refresh my memory of them (they came out at intervals of 8 to 12 months) but also to understand them at all. Wolfe apparently wants the reader to work hard (as witness his use of obscure words, not explained), and in many places a "throw-away line" clarifies something that appeared hundreds of pages back, or even in a previous volume. What does it all mean? I don't know that it *has* to mean anything. If a book engages the reader's attention and gives enjoyment, then it is satisfactory. If it survives several attentive rereadings, and still gives enjoyment, it is excellent. I think _The_New_Sun_ qualifies. One reservation: Severian's promotion to the position of Autarch seems unmotivated; i.e. it does not make sense in the context of the book. (Even the characters in the book seem to feel their world is pretty weird.) This is a defect, and is not repaired by having the previous Autarch suggest that indeed it was unmotivated. But maybe, the next time around, I'll see why Severian was the obvious choice, and this was the obvious thing to happen to him. Regards, Chris
Donn Seeley1984-11-23
I've been out of town and just recently managed to get caught up with everything -- otherwise I would have attended to this earlier. (Perhaps not coincidentally, my trip was to recover my library from storage, including THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN!) Beware: some spoilers may lurk in the following discussion... In the last chapter of THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, Severian says: Have I told you all I promised? I am aware that at various places in my narrative I have pledged that this or that should be made clear in the knitting up of the story. I remember them all, I am sure, but then I remember so much else. Before you assume that I have cheated you, read again, as I will write again. Wolfe is something of a fan of detective fiction (as you might guess from his story 'The Rubber Bend'), and the last several chapters consist of the summation which the great detective always makes at the end of the story. Of course Wolfe doesn't want to spoil the fun of finding the answers, so he answers things obliquely, and you have to read carefully to guess at what particular puzzle is being explained. I don't like to spoil the fun either, but I will mention some points to direct your re-reading that stem from things I've noticed or read elsewhere. + Easy one: Can you draw Severian's family tree? There are a number of red herrings which appear in the course of the books but the answer to this is fairly clear by the end of CITADEL. + What is the connection between the gold coin which Vodalus gave to Severian, and Dr. Talos? What relates it to the Sun and to the old mausoleum in the necropolis of the Citadel? Bonus question, unrelated: What was the original function of the Citadel? + What generates the apparitions of Master Malrubius and the dog, Triskele? This should be easy to answer, perhaps more so because of the recent Asimov novel. (There does seem to be a curious parallel between Asimov's universe and Wolfe's...) + What really happened in the climactic event of THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR? I don't believe this is stated directly but it is relatively straightforward to guess. + What is the basis of the Urthian religion? Analogies with at least two of our religions come to mind. + Who is the Conciliator? What is Severian's connection to him, and to the New Sun? Who is responsible for this connection? + Finally, why is a rose's thorn as efficacious as the Claw? If you understand this, you understand the core of the books. You have 30 minutes. Put your pencil down to indicate when you have finished. Start now. There are lots of fun things to look for besides plot events, of course. One is tracing the origins of the stories and legends which the people of Urth tell. Another is catching references to Jorge Luis Borges' works; two places to look are the story of Domnina's encounter with Father Inire, and 'The Tale of the Student and His Son'. (There are others, too...) Another is looking for little clevernesses -- for example, what book in the set of four which Severian fetches for Thecla does he NOT describe? (I wouldn't have noticed this if Wolfe hadn't mentioned it in an article.) If you fancy this sort of thing, it helps to have a copy of THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER and to read 'The Books in THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN' in PLAN[E]T ENGINEERING (which also has a map of the continent on which Nessus is located). Wolfe started working on THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN in 1975 and the last volume wasn't published until 1983. Think of all the effort that went into it -- it shouldn't be surprising that Wolfe wants the reader to do some work too. If all else fails, you can see if the answers are in THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN when it comes out,
mcdonald1984-11-24
that not enough was made clear. According to Wolfe, the manuscript is about 200 pages through the second draft and has been waiting for several months for him to finish other obligations. Mc

Gene Wolfe - some spoilers1984-12-02 · 2 messages

Laurence C. Roberts1984-12-02
I've enjoyed the recent discussions of Gene Wolfe's _Book_of_the_New_Sun_. I've read ( and re-read) this and a fair ammount of Wolfe's other work. Has anyone out there read _The_Fifth_Head_of_Cerberus_? Has anyone read both that book and Silverberg's _Lord_Valentine's_Castle_? Did it seem to you as if LVC lifted certain concepts from Fifth Head - note the similarity of the Annese to Silverberg's Metamorphs, and the underlying theme in both books of metamorphasis - in Fifth Head from generation to generation of clones (#5) and from VRT to Marsch , and in LVC from the old Valentine to the new. And, although I'm no Heinlein fan, what about Michael Valentine Smith's Castle? Well, perhaps I'm paranoid. Is it possible that there never was a Marsch in the first place, that VRT made him up? I havn't re-read the book since I heard this hypothesis, but even if there aren't any contradictions to it, it sounds kind of shaky. Of course, you've probably noticed the marsch-men pun in "A Story" . Then again, how about March's green eyes? Was there a handwriting change in the journals in part 3? One analysis I read mentions that scenery in "A Story" also appears in "VRT" (part 3). I never noticed this before - I'll have to watch next time. Now a few New Sun things... What about the second time the Green Man was supposed to save Severian's life? Has anyone heard when _The_Urth_of_the_New_ _Sun_ is coming out? What is _The_Wolfe_Archipeligo_? Does anyone out there read Thomas Disch or Somtow Sucharitkul? They are both marvelously literate authors. What's your opinion of Wolfe and Disch (among others) publishing unaffordable collectors editions that you'd be afraid to read for fear of damaging them, even if you could afford them... I'm not even talking about $18 hardbacks ( although those are bad enough ) . I'm complaining about $100 books, and somewhat about Disch's booklets like _Ringtime_ for Toothpaste Press... Opinions? Laurence Roberts ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl "Ifrit first you don't succeed, fly, fly a djinn!"
Kenn Barry1984-12-06
[] > ... What's your opinion of Wolfe and Disch >(among others) publishing unaffordable collectors editions that you'd be afraid >to read for fear of damaging them, even if you could afford them... I'm not even >talking about $18 hardbacks ( although those are bad enough ) . I'm complaining >about $100 books, and somewhat about Disch's booklets like _Ringtime_ for >Toothpaste Press... Opinions? Why would you want to complain? You're not required to buy the expensive collector's editions. These books almost invariably come out in large trade editions, as well, or in paperback. The only ones that don't are those which wouldn't have a mass audience. In such cases high prices are inevitable, since you're unable to prorate the costs of publishing over a large print run. The main reasons these editions are expensive is that they are limited editions, and they (usually) are better made than trade editions. The reason they're published at all is that there are collectors who are willing to pay the high prices for them. I've paid more than $100.00 for some books, and I have no complaints. Having roasted you adequately, let me back down a bit. I *have* seen cases where there has been an unconscionably long delay between the publishing of the collector's edition, and later publishing of the trade edition. This seems to be an effort to boost sales of the expensive version by withholding the affordable copies, and I consider it a low practice. Lest the libertarians flame me, I should add that publishers have a right to do it; but I don't have to like it. - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA

New publication info for Gene Wolfe's FREE LIVE FREE1985-04-13 · 2 messages

Donn Seeley1985-04-13
I'm not particularly up-to-date on the vagaries of the sf publishing business, but I just received some publishing information that may be of interest to fans of Gene Wolfe. Wolfe's novel FREE LIVE FREE, which was written in 1983, was not published as expected in 1984 because of the demise of Pocket Books' Timescape sf line. Instead Mark Ziesing published a special limited edition of the book in late 1984. I talked to Mark Ziesing on the phone this week and asked him about the prospects for a trade edition of the novel. Ziesing said that he had some information that he wasn't completely certain of; the gist of it was that the book would appear as a Tor or Baen trade hardcover sometime in late 1985. (This may have something to do with the fact that David Hartwell, Wolfe's editor at Timescape, is now an 'acquisitions editor' for Tor, among his other occupations, according to Norman Spinrad's column in LOCUS #289.) I have a copy of Ziesing's beautiful (and expensive) edition, but this new edition would mean that more than 750 people would get to enjoy this warm, funny, STRANGE book... Wishing I knew when THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN will come out,
Eli Liang1985-04-15
> From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) > > Wishing I knew when THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN will come out, > What is this? A new NEW sun book? Pray tell more. -eli

THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN1985-05-04

Donn Seeley1985-05-04
What is this? A new NEW sun book? Pray tell more. I still don't know much about this book. The only official word I have on it is very old; it comes from the January 1984 LOCUS article on Wolfe in which he discusses why he quit his job to become a full-time writer: '... I've got the fifth book of the New Sun in first draft, but I haven't done anything on it for months. I plan to pull it out eventually and do the final draft. Comparatively little of the book takes place in the Urth of the Commonwealth. A lot of it takes place in space... The temptation is... to get away from [writing about Urth], because I know the place pretty well and it's time to go and explore a new place.' It's been considerably more than a year since this interview, so I suspect he has had a chance to work on the book some more. Does anyone else have any current information?

New Gene Wolfe books1985-05-07

obrien1985-05-07
I spoke briefly with Gene Wolfe at Boskone. He said that he has a contract for a series of historical novels. They'll be set in Greece, Rome, Ancient Egypt, etc. He seemed quite excited about the whole thing, remarking that the one he really couldn't wait to get started on was the one set in Ancient Egypt. As a student of hieroglypics, I couldn't agree with him more. , \/ iw.i m rswt

Still amazed by Wolfe's FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS after 20 readings...1985-06-06 · 2 messages

Donn Seeley1985-06-06
I give up. After going through the book for the twentieth time or so, I still have to admit that Gene Wolfe's THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS is my favorite work of sf, and very possibly my favorite book, period. I have found something new every single time I've read it, which I think is the greatest and most difficult gift an author can make to a reader. On this pass I finally figured out what Number Five's real name is. In retrospect I probably should have guessed it sooner, but that would have taken some of the fun and suspense out of it! Has anyone else had this experience? Awed, PS -- If you're a Wolfe fan and haven't figured out who Number Five is, are desperate to know and happen to be going to the Usenix conference, buttonhole me when you see me there and I'll give you a hint. I'm also open to hypotheses about PEACE, NEW SUN and other Wolfe masterpieces...
William Ingogly1985-06-07
In article <1475@utah-gr.UUCP> donn@utah-gr.UUCP (Donn Seeley) writes: >I give up. After going through the book for the twentieth time or so, >I still have to admit that Gene Wolfe's THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS is >my favorite work of sf, and very possibly my favorite book, period. I >have found something new every single time I've read it, which I think >is the greatest and most difficult gift an author can make to a >reader. On this pass I finally figured out what Number Five's real >name is. In retrospect I probably should have guessed it sooner, but >that would have taken some of the fun and suspense out of it! Has >anyone else had this experience? The Fifth Head of Cerberus is also close to being my favorite SF work, although Lem's Solaris and certain other works by other authors are also contenders. It's an infinitely rich and rewarding book, but reading Wolfe is definitely work. You've certainly beat me on the number of readings; I've read it three times. It's a book I recommend to anyone I talk to about SF. Wolfe's short stories are also first-rate; check out The Death of Dr. Island And Other Stories And Other Stories. Actually, I can't think of anything he's written that I haven't enjoyed, including the mainstream novel Peace (at least it appears to be mainstream). At the risk of starting more flames in the group on quality and SF (:-), my opinion is that Fifth Head of Cerberus is his best work, but I've only read the Book of the New Sun once so I haven't really gotten into it. I'd be interested in hearing from other people in the group on F. H. of C; does anyone else share our high opinion of this book? -- Bill Ingogly

Wolfe's Book of Days1985-10-20

Steve Rabin1985-10-20
Gene Wolfe's Book of Days has been reissued in paperback by Arrow Books Ltd, a british publisher. I do not believe BoD has ever been published in paperback in America. Change of Hobbit (a bookstore in LA) still has about 5 copies of the Arrow edition. -Steve

Castle of the Otter1985-12-19

Nigel Roberts1985-12-19
Does anyone know if a paperback (trade or otherwise) exists of this book. I'd dearly love to get hold of a copy, but have had no luck at all over here. British bookstores tend to say if it's not on their lists then they can't get it!. Thanks in advance for your help. -Nigel-

Gene Wolfe small press books1986-01-22 · 2 messages

Laurence C. Roberts1986-01-22
Has anyone out there read _Castle_of_the_Otter_ or _Planet_Engineering_?
Linda Wald1986-02-06
all my letters to Laurence Roberts bounced ........ Castle of the Otter first showed up as a reviewers goof -- he thought that the fourth book of the book of the New Sun was so titled. Wolfe then wrote it anyway -- the subtitle is 'a book about the Book of the New Sun'. It contains essays, history, some background, and even one chapter where all the main characters (who were willing) stand up and tell a joke. If you liked Book of the New Sun, you'll probably enjoy it. It's available from the Science Fiction Book Club. Plan[e]t Engineering is NOT reprints from Plant Engineering (by the way, Wolfe is now writing full time .) It was published by NESFA press, and may still be available from them. It commemorates Wolfes appearence as Boscone XXI GoH. The stories , articles and poems were chosen by a jury of NESFA members. It includes 'Books in the Book of the New Sun' and 'The Computer Iterates the Greater Trumps' as well as stories and , oh yes, one article from Plant Engineering on 'The Anatomy of a Robot' . I enjoyed the collection. If you too enjoy Wolfe, I can reasonably safely say you will too. Good luck getting ahold of it. I read the Ziesing edition of Free Live Free and liked it. If such things bother you, it's really only borderline sf. I haven't read the Tor edition, but A Change of Hobbit has it as does Mark Ziesing Booksellers (P.O.Box 806 Willimantic CT. 06226). Enjoy,

Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun1986-01-27 · 4 messages

Kim Helliwell1986-01-27
I've seen several kudos on this newsgroup for Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, and they nearly always prompt the following train of thought in my mind: What is it that you who love it (and read and re-read it avidly) see in it that I am missing? I've made it to the end of the second volume, the one which ends with the invitation to journey further with the protagonist, but does not blame the reader if he chooses not to--saying "it is no easy journey". Even up to that point it is no easy journey, so I've paused long to consider whether I want to go any further! I must be missing some crucial point--is it something that will come clear if I go on, or would the net advise me to abandon it because, "if you have to ask, you ain't never going to know!" If someone could explain in his own words what it is that Wolfe is trying to do with this work, it might help.
Michaelntz1986-01-30
We are asked: > If someone could explain in his own words what it is that Wolfe is trying to > do with this work, it might help. > hplabs!analog!kim What Wolfe is trying to do is raise science fiction to a higher degree of literary value than has EVER EXISTED, beyond question. I have read a hell of a lot of SF and a hell of a lot more `serious' fiction than that (I'm an MA in literature/writing), and all I can tell you, though the Book Of The New Sun is too long and complex for your question to be answerable outside of an extended thesis (shit, I won't pretend I really understand the damn books - they defy that), is that if you are not blown away by now, at the end of the The_Claw_Of_The_Conciliator, if you are not shaking your head at Wolfe's awesome scope, his dazzling imagination, his miraculously skilled prose - well, man, go back to clowns like Heinlein and Asimov. Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The best. Hands down. - Michael Krantz "The text reveals the process of its own production."
Ben Lotto1986-02-24
>> >>I shot Gene Wolfe yesterday. >> >>-Ben > >But WITH WHAT? You've gotta be more specific! > > Charlie Martin > (...mcnc!duke!crm) I wadded up a printout of all the articles that have been posted calling him the greatest thing since Willie Mays and the Spawn of the Devil, and then I catapulted it on top of him.
Steven K. Zoltan Brust1986-02-27
*** You are not able to teleport at will *** Okay, I'm finally moved to take up this gauntlet. Whatever else has happened, the original query ("What d'you guys see in this, anyway?") was quite reasonable and deserves to be answered. It is sad that I can't answer it. I will, however, describe my experience with the books. Okay. I picked up SHADOW OF THE TORTURER and read about a third of it, discovered that it hadn't grabbed me, and stopped reading it. For the next year, I kept hearing from friends I respected how much they were enjoying the books. In particular, I was hearing from those who enjoyed the sounds of words, that is, the work of those who are aware of the beauty of the language. Well, okay, I like that stuff, too. That's why I'm a Zelazny nut, and why I like Orson Scott Card, Jane Yolen, Patricia McKillip, etc. etc. So I decided to give the books another try, this time forcing myself to read slowly and carefully. It worked for me, and I am now very glad that I did. For those who enjoy the sound of English well wrought, these books will tickle that. For those who enjoy a good story, it really is here, it just takes a while to realize it. The book is screamingly funny, without ever falling out of its conceit (including a multi-page comparison of the art of torturing to the art of writing; I almost hurt myself laughing.) The book had me close to tears at times, yet was never a tragady. The part of me that likes to play with ideas just as ideas was tickled all the way through, but never quite in ways I expected. On my next few readings, when I start looking for "What is really going on here; what is the author saying?" there is enough meat that I don't go away hungry. Okay? This certainly won't convince anyone who didn't like it that he ought to, but maybe this will help whoever asked the initial question to understand why some of us enjoy the books. skzb

Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun1986-02-02 · 7 messages

David desJardins1986-02-02
In article <3840005@csd2.UUCP> krantz@csd2.UUCP (Michaelntz) writes: >What Wolfe is trying to do is raise science fiction to a higher degree >of literary value than has EVER EXISTED, beyond question. I have read >a hell of a lot of SF and a hell of a lot more `serious' fiction than >that (I'm an MA in literature/writing), and all I can tell you, though >the Book Of The New Sun is too long and complex for your question to >be answerable outside of an extended thesis (shit, I won't pretend I >really understand the damn books - they defy that), is that if you are >not blown away by now, at the end of the The_Claw_Of_The_Conciliator, >if you are not shaking your head at Wolfe's awesome scope, his dazzling >imagination, his miraculously skilled prose - well, man, go back to >clowns like Heinlein and Asimov. > >Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the >science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The >best. Hands down. I haven't read the books, and for all I know they are God's gift to mankind, but however good the books are the above is the definition of bullshit. The writer presents the following as facts (not opinions): 1) These books have the most literary value of any SF ever written. 2) No one can even question this. 3) He has an MA in literature/writing but can't say why the books are good. 4) Nor does he understand the books; in fact they defy understanding. 5) If you didn't love the book you're an idiot. 6) Once again, Gene Wolfe is the best science fiction author ever. I for one find this sort of garbage extremely offensive. Is anyone out there interested in answering the original question instead of lecturing the rest of us on our stupidity? -- David desJardins
Jim Gardner1986-02-03
>>Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the >>science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The >>best. Hands down. > > I haven't read the books, and for all I know they are God's gift to >mankind, but however good the books are the above is the definition of >bullshit. The writer presents the following as facts (not opinions): > >1) These books have the most literary value of any SF ever written. >2) No one can even question this. >3) He has an MA in literature/writing but can't say why the books are good. >4) Nor does he understand the books; in fact they defy understanding. >5) If you didn't love the book you're an idiot. >6) Once again, Gene Wolfe is the best science fiction author ever. > >I for one find this sort of garbage extremely offensive. Is anyone out >there interested in answering the original question instead of lecturing >the rest of us on our stupidity? > > -- David desJardins Once in a long while, you read a book and the clouds part and the sun shines and your heart begins pumping and your eyes open and you suddenly realize that all your previous notions of what literature can do are feeble and limited. This is an awesome experience...and it's a pity that the word "awesome" has been so devalued in recent years, because "awe" is just as strong and surprising as it was millennia ago when the human race knew doodly-squat about anything. As Eastern (and Western) mystics have repeated down through the years, you can't explain "awe" rationally and you can't forcefeed it into someone who is not receptive to it. Nevertheless, some things/events/works of art are awe-inspiring and those who have felt their impact are changed by the experience. High-falutin' words, and being a child of the cool cynical 70's and 80's, I would normally gag at the paragraph I just wrote. But I've read the Book of the New Sun, and I have to call a masterpiece a masterpiece. In my opinion, the Book of the New Sun is the greatest piece of literature ever produced by the English-speaking SF movement. I can think of nothing that approaches it. I can think of no other book that would move me to such a trite-sounding contentious statement. So the obvious question is, "Why?" And it would be a lot easier for all concerned if the question had an obvious answer. It doesn't. Even worse, I know that any answer I can give is going to trivialize something that is deep and strong and wise. But here are a variety of attempts to say why the Book of the New Sun is awesome: (1) It expands the limits of what SF can do. Not only is the story carried forward by strict narrative, but by philosopical digressions, a play, stories told by characters, dream sequences, flashbacks, offhand remarks, and so on. The structure is complex, and frankly, there are times when you don't know what the hell is going on (at least on first reading), but the result is much more satisfying than "First A happened, then B, then C." As a reader, you have to work and you have to think. (2) It breaks SF cliches. This is a book with all the SF stock and trade turned inside out. Yes, there is space travel, but no one on earth cares about it much anymore. Yes, there is time travel (of a sort), but it is embodied in a very simple artifact and used for down-to-earth purposes. We have a robot in love with a woman, but feeling unworthy of her because he has been injured and repaired with human parts, so is not a "whole" being. The Frankenstein story is turned inside-out, none of the aliens behave the way you expect, the hero becomes Supreme leader of his commonwealth in a way that is _nothing_ like any SF cliche, the great duel that caps the first volume is fought with flowers, and on and on. (3) The book depicts a complete, very human society that is nothing like ours. This is often the goal of SF, but you don't realize how far short other books come until you read this one. Religion, culture, art, cuisine, modes of thought, are all fully envisioned and _different_. Simple example: by the time the book takes place, relativity and heliocentrism are firmly established in everyday life. Therefore, the sun never sets; earth's horizon rises to cover the sun. Wolfe never slips into 20th century thought. (4) The book is rich with allusions, humour, and anything else you care to name. Things that immediately come to mind are twists on things we would recognize: the hero's attempt at interpreting a painting which is actually a photo of Armstrong on the moon; a funny/serious recap of the temptations of Christ inside the head of a mountain that has been carved to resemble a deceased tyrant who isn't quite dead enough; the classic fairy tale romance told entirely in what sound like quotations from Chairman Mao. Heaven knows how many of these I missed -- I'm told there are a lot of allusions to Borges' work, but I didn't catch them. (5) The prose style is flawless. This doesn't matter to the general reader, but it fills the writer in me with envy. Sentences are seamless, varied, always easy to understand, never draw attention to themselves, until you actually look at what he is pulling off. Yes, he uses a vast number of unfamiliar words...but they are all nouns for objects/people/institutions that have no present-day counterparts. There is none of the Stephen R. Donaldson "use a $10 word in some awkward way just to sound more important" nonsense. Does this answer the question? Probably not -- if the point of the work could be summarized in a few paragraphs, I wouldn't be raving about the book being truly great. It's like trying to explain why cold juicy oranges are more satisfying than a Snickers bar; there's nothing wrong with Snickers, but oranges at the right time and place are blissful. Will everyone like the Book of the New Sun? Of course not. Some people are looking for different things in their reading material. Will everyone understand the Book of the New Sun? Not a chance. Which I think is a bonus. Anything I can understand completely at first sight is nowhere near the heights to which humans can aspire, right? The world is complex, art is not immediately transparent (although it may seem very simple), and any work that really tries to bite off a piece of immortality is going to have depths that only unfold with thought and time. Literature that fully engages the capacity of an adult mind is not something you can assimilate in quick skimming. (IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not saying that a book has to be inaccessible to be good; I don't like books that keep me in a constant state of confusion. I am saying that something I can wring totally dry on first reading could well be an enjoyable book, but dammit, we're grown-ups now, and a mature writer spending months or years producing a piece of literature can put more resonances/tricks/delights/ironies into a story than I can pull out in a few hours of page turning. There _are_ heights. There _are_ books that yield new pleasures and revelations every time you read them. Those show what writing can accomplish.) Is anyone out there persuaded? If I were someone who hadn't read the books, I would be extremely skeptical of what I have just written. But I hope some people are curious enough that they will go to their local libraries (it's free!) and get the first volume (The Shadow of the Torturer) to see what it's like. Note that this is not a series, but one book in four volumes, and you'll be lost if you don't read them in order. For those who have started the book and see no point in continuing, so it goes. Some people can look at the Grand Canyon and feel awestruck, while others wonder why they drove all the way to Arizona to see a big hole in the ground. If the Book of the New Sun does nothing for you, life's too short to waste your time slogging through tens of thousands of words in the hope that it will all suddenly make sense. Look elsewhere for inspiration. But it inspired me. A lot. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo
Mark1986-02-03
> I haven't read the books, and for all I know they are God's gift to > mankind, but however good the books are the above is the definition of > bullshit. The writer presents the following as facts (not opinions): > > 1) These books have the most literary value of any SF ever written. > 2) No one can even question this. > 3) He has an MA in literature/writing but can't say why the books are good. > 4) Nor does he understand the books; in fact they defy understanding. > 5) If you didn't love the book you're an idiot. > 6) Once again, Gene Wolfe is the best science fiction author ever. > > I for one find this sort of garbage extremely offensive. Is anyone out > there interested in answering the original question instead of lecturing > the rest of us on our stupidity? > > -- David desJardins I'm another one of those people to whom Gene Wolf is like unto a god, but I have to agree with Mr. desJardins on some of his points. Others are a little less cut and dried. Points 1) and 2) are by definition absurd, or at least unsupportable. There's been an awful lot of SF written, and a significant portion of that has had literary aspirations. All of Delaney's work, a lot of Ellison (although no one should tell him that), Tanith Lee's stories, the ones by LeGuin, all of those were stories written as something other than hack work. So were most of those by almost any other "name" author of the past 20 years. And don't forget the small-time authors whose work, though well crafted, might have slipped by us. Literary value isn't something that can be quantized. Which brings me to point 3). All I can say about point 3) is to go out and read _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_. The book won't tell you why Gene Wolf is god, but it might help people understand why I can't tell you either. There are novels that are well crafted, that flow easily, that have good dialogue and interesting plot, i.e. technically flawless books that simply aren't as _good_ as _The Book of the New Sun_. _Green Eyes_ by Lucius Sheperd comes to mind. That book was a first novel, and blew me away, but it still didn't have the impact that the Wolf's novels have had. There are things I could point to in his books and say "Look, a perfectly crafted section", indicating the allusions, the rythmm of the words, the play on the readers point of view versus the narators, and still you'd be missing the Quality of the piece. In that area of art, nothing really has a name, only a presence that either takes the viewer into a new state of being, or does not. Which brings me to my next point. In number 5) the original author is paraphrased such that he comes across as saying all non-Wolf-worshipers are stupid. I wouldn't have read it quite that harshly, believing there to have been more enthusiasm than spite behind the words. If Wolf's work hits you, it generally hits you hard. If not, it's stuff that's a chore to wade through. I've tried to indoctrinate two girlfriends to the Order, with no success. I still like them both (well, one of them) fine. I wasn't trying to increase their intelligence. I was trying to give them something great and good. There are snobs, even in SF. One of them may be sitting sitting beside you right now, but realize that all enthusiasts are also elitists. Bear with the mania of thy neighbor. Point 4). "Understanding" a book is one thing to work for. For most people it comes easy with most books, and Wolf's books have a perfectly understandable plot line (until the end when things get hairy, but if you've gotten that far you won't mind). There are other things to work for as well. Finding all the nuances in the books to be found, that's something no one will ever do. I think that's what the original poster had in mind when he said that about understanding the books. I think someone once defined art as that which is always new. Who can understand something that is forever new to them? Who would want to? As to who's the best SF author ever, that remains to be seen, doesn't it? Mark!
David C. Albrecht1986-02-10
> Once in a long while, you read a book and the clouds part and the > sun shines and your heart begins pumping and your eyes open and you > suddenly realize that all your previous notions of what literature > can do are feeble and limited.... (lots more) Though as I stated before I was not impressed by the Book of the New Sun, I was impressed by this review. It was obvious the author was very taken by these books and to some degree he even managed to get across why. Certainly it came light years closer to making me want to get down the books and look at them than the original response. Variety of taste can, do, and hopefully always will exist. Discussions of what really struck you as profound or meaningful in a book might make others see those things for themselves. Impugning someone because they don't think or feel exactly like you do usually just pisses them off (I know it does me). Thank you for an intelligent, well thought response to this query it at least gave me more insight into what makes a number of people so ecstatic about these books. David Albrecht
Jim Gardner1986-02-11
[...] I'm not sure I want to become known as the resident Book of the New Sun fanatic, so I'm hesitant to expand on my previous posting. However, a few points: I took great pains to avoid saying anything patronizing to people who didn't like the book. Heaven knows, I've had people tell me, "This book changed my life" and found that when I read it, I hated it. I also took great pains not to say that Gene Wolfe is the greatest living SF writer. I don't like statements like that. "Greatness" is made up of more things than writing one great book. For the people who were quick to write me and inform me that my attitude is full of shit, all I can say is "Not everything that SOUNDS like bullshit IS bullshit" And some answers to questions. In article <168@ucdavis.UUCP> ccrrick@deneb.UUCP writes: >So many of the characters seem to be insane and therefore take actions >that appear illogical: Master Palaemon gives an extremely valuable >sword to a man who never seemed to interest him and who ought to be >sentenced to death. If you trust an author, you say that irrational actions are hints to something else. In particular (SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER): Master Palaemon notes that one other torturer fouled up and was banished for a time from the guild. In Citadel of the Autarch, it becomes clear that the person in question was Palaemon himself and that he went through many of the same places and experiences that Severian did. (Severian notes early on that Palaemon is a complicated man attempting to seem simple.) In fact, the odds are good that Palaemon picked up the sword in his travels in the outside world. With this in mind, the gift makes a great deal more sense. The rationality of Dr. Talos, Baldanders and the stuttering >man seem questionable to me as well. Dr.Talos and Baldanders are indeed interesting characters, and both somewhat more than human. Many mysteries about them are solved in Sword of the Lictor. >One thing that intrigues me is the theory that Severian has lived this >life before and that all the events depicted have been experienced by >Severian not once, but twice. Anyone have any thoughts or theories on >this? What made someone think of this rather unique thought in >the first place? What evidence is there for it? Severian himself claims this to be true in Citadel of the Autarch. At the risk of bringing things down to SF cliches, you can look at it this way (SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER): all possible futures exist and people from those futures can return to their pasts. In fact, Severian meets at least two time-travellers, from mutually exclusive futures. They can both visit Severian's time, because their pasts are solid and Severian is part of their past. However, neither time line is necessarily the one that Severian will experience. In some other timeline, there was another Severian who experienced similar things to the real Severian. The various Powers who know what happens on various time lines interceded at various points in Severian's life to put him back on the pattern of events experienced by the first Severian...until things flew too far apart for them to be held together. The first Severian went along his own time line and became Autarch, just as the narrating Severian did; remember that the first Severian experienced most of what the narrator did. The first Severian later became a time traveller and went back into his own past. This was also "our" Severian's past, so some of the things that the first Severian did eventually affected "our" Severian. Naturally, there are contradictions inherent in this view of time travel, but every version of time travel has apparent contradictions, and no one would ever accuse the Book of the New Sun of being "hard" science fiction. So there...a few answers to puzzling questions. They're there if you're inclined to search for them. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo
Ben Lotto1986-02-19
I shot Gene Wolfe yesterday. -Ben
Charlie Martin1986-02-21
In article <11932@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> lotto@brahms.UUCP (Ben Lotto) writes: > >I shot Gene Wolfe yesterday. > >-Ben But WITH WHAT? You've gotta be more specific!

Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun1986-02-02 · 15 messages

Paul Hahn1986-02-02
In article <194@analog.UUCP> kim@analog.UUCP (Kim Helliwell ) writes: >What is it that you who love it (and read and re-read it avidly) see in it >that I am missing? . . . >If someone could explain in his own words what it is that Wolfe is trying to >do with this work, it might help. I can't tell you what Wolfe is trying to do, but I can tell you what I, myself, enjoy about the work. (I've only read it twice, but plan to reread it many more times in the future.) There are, basically, four things that really appeal to me about THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN: (1) The world. Wolfe has created a world in these books which has as much feeling of depth and reality as Middle-Earth or the Land or anything other created world of which I have read. In addition, Urth has its own unique flavor, a distinctiveness that is perhaps unsurpassed in my experience. (2) The storytelling. The beautiful, beautiful use of the English language in these books absolutely grips me, though I can understand that for some the difficulty of getting through it would negate its power. Matter of taste, I guess. (3) The people. As with the world they inhabit, Wolfe's characters are unusual and fascinating. To follow Severian in his physical and spiritual (yech, I hate that word) journey is a joy. (4) The challenge. Throughout most of the four volumes, as I marveled at the weird and wonderful images Wolfe showed me I was also thinking: What the blank is going on? To a certain degree THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN is a puzzle. It involves time in several ways, which creates a profound sense of disorientation and confusion sometimes, but comes clear (for the most part, anyway) at the end if one is paying attention. I will be the first to admit that I wasn't (I zipped through THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH during finals week), which was why many things which I should have gotten had to wait for my second reading. I am still far from a complete understanding of the book, and doubt that I shall ever attain one, but I intend to keep trying and savoring. Does that help? --pH /* * "My pen halts, though I do not. Reader, you will walk no * more with me. It is time we both take up our lives." */
wfi1986-02-03
In article <3840005@csd2.UUCP> krantz@csd2.UUCP (Michaelntz) writes: >Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the >science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The >best. Hands down. I'd also like to recommend (again) to net.sf-lovers readers the excellent "Fifth Head Of Cerberus." I think Wolfe's being the "best SF novelist ever" is debatable (probably endlessly :-). Although Stanislaw Lem's books are uneven in quality, at his best I think he's a match for Wolfe. Based, of course, on the translations that are available of his work. Try the "Cyberiad" or "Solaris," "Memoirs Found In A Bathtub" or "The Futurological Congress". Or his stranger works like "A Perfect Vacuum." -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly
jimb1986-02-04
> ...the Book Of The New Sun is too long and complex for your question to > be answerable outside of an extended thesis (shit, I won't pretend I > really understand the damn books - they defy that)... > > ...Wolfe's awesome scope, his dazzling imagination, his miraculously > skilled prose... > > Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the > science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The > best. Hands down. > > - Michael Krantz I will straddle the fence (and probably incur anatomical difficulties as a result). The first two quotes above I agree with, though I do not associate myself with some of the snotty tone in the sections I deleted. As to the third quote, while I find it arguable, it *is* arguable, e.g., can't be dismissed out of hand. The Book of the New Sun is not for plot readers. Wolfe's use of plot is almost completely centered on progressive revelation and illumination of character, that kernel of all good fiction. TBOTNS is one definition by example of tour de force. He is using SF convention and imagery combined with classical literary technique to portray the life, conflicts, and character development of a fascinating individual in a fascinating world. TBOTNS is written with and to a different sensibility than most SF, and like all literature, you must accept it on its own terms if it is going to "work" for you. If you don't, or for whatever reason can't, such is life. Remember, concerning matters of taste, there is no disputing. (An aphorism that antedates my birth by a good couple of millenia.) -- from the musings of Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780B hao/ico/ism780B "In any large scale endeavor that has worked to the benefit of mankind, there has been pain and sacrifice and loss. We stand now at one of the pivotal points in history. We can say "no" to the unknown mysteries of space, turn our backs, and announce our decline as a civilization. Or we can look at the stars, express our grief at the loss of CHALLENGER and its crew, and then honor their lives by saying, 'We shall continue.'"
Tim Maroney1986-02-05
The Book of the New Sun is in some ways a difficult work. If you don't like it, then by all means read something you will ike better. However, since the question was why others like it... First, ignore the person who said the world is unique. Wrong. Jack Vance used it frequently, though Wolfe's variation incorporates some Cordwainer Smith as well (you know, when he says "Atomic Age" and it *really* sounds like "Bronze Age"). Nonetheless, ity is fascinating to modern people to explore a perspective from which we are not only relegated to a historical junkpile, but completely forgotten and proven to have no significance whatsoever in the overall history of the world. The prose is stunningly crafted. That in itself is not enough to make a book enjoyable -- see William Gibson, who people will get sick of long before 1988. Nonetheless, at this level it is the best science fiction ever: it almost attains the stature of an epic poem. Related to thhe quality of the prose is the quality of the imagery, which is peculiarly evocative. All the grains and colors of a Wolfe scene leap out with all the attribnutes of a vivid three-dimensional perception remembered from childhood. This is done without long, tedious description or focusing on surface features. The plots are what really make the series. For some reason I have yet to figure out, the characters and events really get into my brain and reconfigure it into an Escher lithograph. Their raw potency defies description or summary. If these are not moving you, I don't know what to tell you. Do they seem arbitrary? Pointless? Then you and I have different worlds, or at least different ways of reading. I hope this helps. Try to read the Book as if it were an epic poem in blank verse, and you may come to appreciate it more. Tim Maroney
David C. Albrecht1986-02-05
> if you are not shaking your head at Wolfe's awesome scope, his dazzling > imagination, his miraculously skilled prose - well, man, go back to > clowns like Heinlein and Asimov. > > Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the > science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The > best. Hands down. > Insert rasberry here. I realize that many people believe that these books are the greatest thing since sliced bread and I wish them all happiness in their beliefs. Me, I guess I will stick with clowns :-). I read Shadow of the Torturer and thought it was horrible. After reading all the praise for the books I gave them another chance and read the entire Book of the New Sun set. I wasn't particularly fascinated. To me the characters were not particularly interesting. The books were a series of disconnected vignettes that I found neither particularly interesting nor imaginative. I didn't feel much purpose or direction anywhere. No thanks. We went through the whole discussion of the subjectiveness of writing in this group to the point of exhaustion. In your opinion Gene Wolfe is the finest writer in the genre, fine. In my opinion he is not even close to the best I would much rather read 'clowns' like Zelazny, McKillip, Blish, Biggle, Silverberg, Eddings, Card, Fiest, even some Asimov or Heinlen. David Albrecht
Charlie Martin1986-02-06
To: mcnc!decvax!bellcore!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!jagardner Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers Organization: Duke University, Durham NC Cc: Bcc: In article <1090@watmath.UUCP> you write: >...so it goes. Some people can look at the Grand Canyon and feel >awestruck, while others wonder why they drove all the way to Arizona >to see a big hole in the ground. > And some of us went to the Grand Canyon and found that the old, wind-warped timberline pines were far more beautiful, even if the Grand Canyon is pretty imressive. I haven't read "Book of the New Sun" because some of the rest of Wolfe's writing put me off rather badly, and I've only so many hours in the day. So maybe I'll try it -- Shadow etc is around here someplace. But DesJardins has a good point about the posting to which he responded -- the general tone *was* "anybody who doesn't think that Gene Wolfe is Ghod's gift to SF is a schmuck." And I think he was justly offened. Your posting, while more complete and a far better description of the book(s), *still* comes across (in my humble opinion [Davis, stop giggling!]) as "if you don't have a religious experience reading Book of the New Sun, there may be something seriously wrong with your upbringing." So cut those of us who prefer a style more like Hemingway a little slack, okay?
jimb1986-02-06
Thought I'd jump back in again. Jim Gardner's response (jagardner @ watmath) is excellent. I wish *I* had written it and I second practically everything he said -- didn't see anything I wouldn't wholeheartedly agree with on one read/think. Thanks, Jim. -- from the musings of Jim Brunet ihnp4/ima/ism780B hao/ico/ism780B "In any large scale endeavor that has worked to the benefit of mankind, there has been pain and sacrifice and loss. We stand now at one of the pivotal points in history. We can say "no" to the unknown mysteries of space, turn our backs, and announce our decline as a civilization. Or we can look at the stars, express our grief at the loss of CHALLENGER and its crew, and then honor their lives by saying, 'We shall continue.'"
Ned Danieley1986-02-06
In article <651@edison.UUCP> dca@edison.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) writes: >> if you are not shaking your head at Wolfe's awesome scope, his dazzling >> imagination, his miraculously skilled prose - well, man, go back to >> clowns like Heinlein and Asimov. >> >> Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the >> science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The >> best. Hands down. >> >Insert rasberry here... . . . >.... In my opinion he is not even close >to the best I would much rather read 'clowns' like Zelazny, McKillip, >Blish, Biggle, Silverberg, Eddings, Card, Fiest, even some Asimov or Heinlen. > >David Albrecht I second David's opinion. I got through the books, but I'm not sure why. Ned Danieley
Guy M. Smith1986-02-06
In article <1090@watmath.UUCP>, jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: > I can think of nothing that approaches it. I can think of no other > book that would move me to such a trite-sounding contentious statement. Ditto for me. In terms of a fully realized alternate world, the only book that I know of that is in the same class as the New Sun is Lord of the Rings. I wouldn't attempt to try to compare the two directly as the authors were trying to do such different things. Someone else may be braver. As for Wolfe, anyone who can make a sympathetic character out of a torturer has got to be good.
Barbara Jernigan1986-02-07
>Finding all the nuances in the books to be found, that's something no one will >ever do. I think that's what the original poster had in mind when he said that >about understanding the books. I think someone once defined art as that which >is always new. Who can understand something that is forever new to them? Who >would want to? If it makes the reader feel any better, sometimes authors are in the same boat. To quote Jung: The secret of creativeness, like that of the freedom of the will, is a transcendental problem which the psychologist cannot answer but can only describe. . . . Art is a kind of innate drive that seizes a human being and makes him its instrument. The artist is not a person endowed with free will who seeks his own ends, but one who allows art to realize its purposes through him. . . . As K. G. Carus says: "Strange are the ways by which genius is announced, for what distinguishes so supremely endowed a being is that, for all the freedom of his life and the clarity of his thought, he is everywhere hemmed round and prevailed upon by the Unconscious, the mysterious god within him; so that ideas flow to him -- he knows not whence; his is driven to work ant to create -- he knows not to what end; and is mastered by an impulse for constant growth and development -- he knows not whither." In my own work, I have found myself unconsciously foreshadowing later events -- and was aware of the foreshadowing only within the second and third passes. Is strange, remaining inexplicable (but pretty neat). When the writer says, "The book wrote itself," he/she is not lying or belittling his/her craft. The ideas, hard as they are, are not the hardest part. The *hard* part is turning the idea into something readable. But I digress. > As to who's the best SF author ever, that remains to be seen, doesn't it? > Mark! "Best." Do I know that word? ;-) Barb
Pat Clancy1986-02-12
>Insert rasberry here... >I read Shadow of the Torturer and thought it was horrible. I'll second that! This was an outstandingly bad novel. Yet it seems that every year or so the Wulf-cultists must issue forth onto the net to demonstrate why there's such a large and uncritical market for so much bad SF.
wfi1986-02-13
In article <1808@hammer.UUCP> patcl@hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes: >I'll second that! This was an outstandingly bad novel. >Yet it seems that every year or so the Wulf-cultists must >issue forth onto the net to demonstrate why there's such >a large and uncritical market for so much bad SF. Horses__t. The "Wulf" cultists are simply people who appreciate a particular work and are attempting to share their reasons for appreciating it with the other readers of this group. What the h_ll ELSE is this group supposed to be about??? If you DON'T like a discussion, use your 'N' key to skip over the articles pertaining to the discussion. I personally don't give a hoot about the interminable Star Drek/Star Bores discussions, so I skip over them. I certainly don't enter a discussion I have no obvious interest in to tell the people involved they're "uncritical" or "cultists" for caring about a topic. If you think the Book of the New Sun was an "outstandingly bad novel" or think the comments that have been made praising it are incorrect, please defend your position. You are claiming here that those of us who admire Wolfe's achievement are uncritical cultists (your words). I can turn around and say that those who dismiss Wolfe are insensitive clot-brains. WHAT THE H_LL DOES THIS KIND OF PERSONAL ATTACK PROVE? Net.sf-lovers SHOULD represent a diversity of opinion and present its readers with viewpoints and opinions. That's why I read net.sf-lovers: to learn why people like/dislike the books I read, and maybe to learn about books I'm not familiar with. I DON'T read net.sf-lovers to hear name-calling and ten-word informationless dismissals of works many people feel have extended the genre. If you can't say something with a measurable information content, don't say anything at all. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly
Tim Maroney1986-02-14
In article <1808@hammer.UUCP> patcl@hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes: >>Insert rasberry here... >>I read Shadow of the Torturer and thought it was horrible. > >I'll second that! This was an outstandingly bad novel. >Yet it seems that every year or so the Wulf-cultists must >issue forth onto the net to demonstrate why there's such >a large and uncritical market for so much bad SF. This "cult" happens to include more than half of the SFWA, the Science Fiction Writers of America, as evidenced by the Nebula selections. I would hardly call the SFWA uncritical, or large for that matter. Perhaps the writers know something you don't? (There, we're even insult for insult.) Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot
ph1986-02-15
In article <1808@hammer.UUCP> patcl@hammer.UUCP (Pat Clancy) writes: >>I read Shadow of the Torturer and thought it was horrible. > >I'll second that! This was an outstandingly bad novel. >Yet it seems that every year or so the Wulf-cultists must >issue forth onto the net to demonstrate why there's such >a large and uncritical market for so much bad SF. Oh, for [insert favorite messiah here]'s sake! A little tolerance, PLEASE?!? Whatever your opinion of WOlfE's work (or anyone else's for that matter), it's not that difficult (or doesn't have to be) to understand and admit that someone else's may well be different. I like THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. I fully realize that the reasons for which I like it may not apply to you. If they don't, I may question you about it, and ask you to explain your position, but I will do my damnedest NOT to abuse you about it. Can you do me the same courtesy? --pH /* * "And what if I attempt to convince you otherwise?" * "You cannot convince us of anything, Socrates, if we refuse * to listen." */
Charlie Martin1986-02-17
In article <527@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >This "cult" happens to include more than half of the SFWA, the Science >Fiction Writers of America, as evidenced by the Nebula selections. I would >hardly call the SFWA uncritical, or large for that matter. Perhaps the >writers know something you don't? (There, we're even insult for insult.) > >Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot >{sun,ptsfa,ihnp4,well,yomama,frog}!hoptoad!tim And also even, fallacy for fallacy. This one is called "appeal to authority." --- and how are you liking the bay area?

What The Book Of The New Sun Means To Me (In 25 Words Or More)1986-02-05 · 3 messages

TuckerDH1986-02-05
Well, I thought I'd stay out of it for awhile, but I can't resist any longer... Gene Wolfe is demostrably one of the finest (if not the finest) writers of fiction in the world today. He has a mastery of his genre that few others in many other fields ever even hope to acquire. Like Joyce, he can turn his conventions, our conventions, on their heads, and achieve a beautiful resonance that goes beyond mere head-turning. Every sentence he writes in The Book Of The New Sun drips with meaning, throbs with resonance of ideas and images gone before, or to come. Like Eco, he can make a novel of ideas and mood and atmosphere and history become a novel of actions and deeds and words and movement with a stroke of the pen or the turn of a page, without seeming disjointed, without (in many cases) the reader even being aware. Like Lem, he can take a set, mundane situation and make the reader see how much the perception of reality affects reality itself, to illuminate the distinction between what it real and what is perceived, to illuminate that there is sometimes a difference between them, that there sometimes is not. The Book Of The New Sun is arguably science fiction's crowning achievement to date, in its scope, its innate understanding and subsequent casting-off of forms and accepted precepts. Certainly, it is difficult at times, and while science fiction readers have grown accustomed to their own special vocabulary and accepted the making-up of words to describe things for which there are no words ("Grok", "Slan", etc.), Wolfe, in a very simple and subtle manner, turns even this convention on its head with his use of archaic words, and Latin usage, words that have rung in other people's ears and have come out of other people's mouths (like "destrier" - a medieval term for a knight's horse). Science fiction readers don't generally like long, mellifluous sentences of this nature; we want Hemingway-esque, Heinlein-esque sentence structure. Gritty, to-the-point, advancing the story with every clause. We don't like Melville or Marquez, with their two-page sentences that are like mazes of apposition, predication, and subject-verb agreements a mile long. Wolfe, in turn, writes sentences that are paragraphs and paragraphs that are sentences, turning the long into the short and the short into the long. He brings back to modern literature the sheer joy of reading for reading's sake, something that the "good read" and the "great story" generally don't offer. Each page reveals something new, some surprise, some totally different way of looking at reality. In the larger scale, beyond his minor triumphs of structure of clause, phrase, sentence and paragraph, Wolfe presents a world that evokes so many different things to so many different people that this one quality alone makes the book deserving of great praise. To some, Urth is medieval. To others, it is Egyptian, Byzantine, Roman, Foundation (Asimov), Future History (Heinlein). Urth reminds me of Jack Vance's deeply symbolic societies where form is more than function, of Smith's Instrumentality where what is best for Man is to remain ignorant and keep knowledge, true knowledge, in the hands and hearts of a select few, of Louis XIV's Versailles, of Eliza- bethan England, of Renaissance Italy, of Macbeth. And more, although the primary accomplishment is that Urth is none of these things, that it is a construct of Wolfe's, as real and vivid (see, Charlie?) as 20th Century America. Urth is so strange, so wonderful, so alien, and yet the fundamental nature of human beings, the fundamental flaws of man, are still the same, and still worked out on a tapestry of incredible imagery and breathtaking scope. Most definitely, The Book Of The New Sun is difficult to read, in places. We often tend to forget in this age of television and speed-reading courses that there can sometimes be merit in slowing the reader down, in forcing the act of reading to be noticed, in allowing a reader to take time to savor the individual moments and concepts of a single page. We read at a chapter's pace, and Wolfe forces us to read at a sentence's pace. This is uncomfortable, just as riding in a horse-and-buggy from Lancaster County to Philadelphia is uncomfortable - we can get there so much faster by car, or plane. But as many of us would admit, there is beauty and something extra in going by the landscape at ten miles an hour that we could never hope to experience at sixty. The same is true for books. The Book Of The New Sun is difficult to read because there is so much more in it that people are used to - page for page, Wolfe attacks more, cajoles more, surprises more, and accomplishes more than any modern writer. What is The Book Of The New Sun about? I don't really know. I do know that it fascinated me more than any novel I have read, that it left me with a feeling of dislocation in this world that I have never experienced from a book, that feeling of having lived another life with which I have nothing in common, of having been someplace that I could never imagine being. We can all imagine spaceships now, and sandworms, and the infinity of space - it's part of science fiction history. But Wolfe has given us the infinity of the mind, the infinity of dreams layered over dreams, covered with time and dust, resting on a precarious foundation of shifting perception. There is a puzzle, there is a puzzle of puzzles, there is a morality play and a homonculus who is ruled by the giant he thinks he possesses (yet another twist among the thousands), there is an order of nuns who guard a jewel that is worthless and yet beyond price, there are cannibals and revolutionaries and palace intrigues, there is a good bit of film noir double-dealing and sleight-of-hand, reminiscent of "Body Heat" and "Double Jeopardy", there is loneliness and self-realization and swords and wizardry, demons of the desert and of the mind, time travel that is used for different purposes than anyone could ever imagine, backwardness and incredible sophistication of the intellect and the society, war and hatred and duels, myths from our present that are changed around to present the symbology of different times, often with the opposite moral than we would draw from them, there is death and rebirth, imperfection and strangeness, there is hope, there is confusion, there is decay and degradation. There are at least ten great novels in here, in different parts, and a multitude of great, truly great short stories cast off like litter by the side of the road. There is more in The Book Of The New Sun than any one person can understand, appreciate, or see in one reading, or in ten. Wolfe has managed to build so many layers on top of layers, like his necropolis, that it is an incredible literary archeological attempt to unearth them all. And like cutting though a pearl or an onion, no one layer is more important than the other, though some may be more central. In the immortal words of Marty DiBergi "But hey - enough a my yakkin... Let's boogie!" Davis Tucker
William Ingogly1986-02-07
In article <53@druri.UUCP> dht@druri.UUCP (TuckerDH) writes: >What is The Book Of The New Sun about? I don't really know. I do know >that it fascinated me more than any novel I have read, that it left >me with a feeling of dislocation in this world that I have never experienced >from a book, that feeling of having lived another life with which I have >nothing in common, of having been someplace that I could never imagine >being. ... In Gene Wolfe's "The Fifth Head Of Cerberus," there is a passage in which the son of the joyhouse owner (can't remember his name) recalls leaning out his bedroom window ringed with alien flowers to look out at the bay; as he does so, he observes a plume of water rising where a starship has fallen into the ocean's water. Above the city hangs the planet's companion, a world of watery meadows and legendary aborigines. I remember first reading this passage and reacting to it in the same way you describe your reaction to BotNS, Davis: recognition. A sense almost of deja vu, something I get rarely from SF (uh, oh: watch those flames, buddih!). Wolfe makes these worlds live for us, and by doing so brings us to new understandings of our own world through his universe's similarities to and differences from our own. His characters and landscapes truly have the feel of REALITY. Thanks, Gene. And thank you, Davis, for a beautiful description of your own appreciation of Wolfe's work. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly
Daniel G. Winkowski1986-02-17
Wolfe succeeds where Delaney attempts to travel. [=] Today we live in the future, Tomorrow we'll live for the moment, But, pray we never live in the past.

Gene Wolfe flames and reviews1986-02-06 · 3 messages

T Cox1986-02-06
[] > > I haven't read the books, and for all I know they are God's gift to > > mankind, but however good the books are the above is the definition of > > bullshit. The writer presents the following as facts (not opinions): [biased paraphrases here] > > I for one find this sort of garbage extremely offensive. Is anyone out > > there interested in answering the original question instead of lecturing > > the rest of us on our stupidity? > > > > -- David desJardins > > I'm another one of those people to whom Gene Wolf is like unto a god, but > I have to agree with Mr. desJardins on some of his points. Others are a > little less cut and dried. > . > . > . > As to who's the best SF author ever, that remains to be seen, doesn't it? > Mark! First, may the Powers forgive me for all this included text. Second, may the elementals of fire hear me, for I do their work. Flame on. You total bozos. I really cannot understand such gross stupidity in people who would otherwise strike me as bright: readers of SF/Fantasy stories. You amaze me. You can swallow spiders on Mars. You can read the future history of the Earth a million hears hence without blinking. You can handle the twisting and writhing of every physical law of the universe. And then, then you fall flat on your collective faces when someone uses strong rhetoric. This is too much. The original poster, whose article has long since vanished from my site, said things like "there never has been, nor ever could be, an author as gifted as this one." Do you think he was serious? Of course not! Great horned toads of Jupiter! This is called, now read slowly here, e x a g g e r a t i o n. Everyone catch that? He was overstating the case for dramatic effect. Something any author can do through the mouth of a character without surprising any one of you. But let someone make a sweeping generalization on the net, and everyone jumps down his throat. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Now we're going to have a little test here. I am going to write something that will be an exaggeration. I will do it for dramatic effect. Ready? Take your time. Don't get excited; it's only exaggeration. It's just a rhetorical device. Now brace yourselves. Not one of you is worthy of posting to sf-lovers, you narrow-minded, gullible GITS! How literal-minded and dense can a human being be?!? You are not worthy of even READING this newsgroup! I banish you all forth- with to the purgatory of net.philosophy, net.religion. christian, net.women, and net.cooks! Begone! There, that wasn't so bad, was it? A little warm, but hardly threatening to the discriminating reader. Flame off. May the elementals of fire be appeased. Please, fellow readers, next time someone uses strong language the way the original poster did, to make an obviously silly sweeping generalization, remember that there are people in the world who use that kind of phrasing all the time, in normal conversation. Just because you don't, that doesn't mean others cannot. And if it gets under your skin, that is not the other guy's fault. If the original poster had been a green-tentacled alien from, say, Planet 10, you'd not have reacted that way. Shame on you all. "oh, lighten up, Tom!" Sorry.
Charlie Martin1986-02-09
In article <1603@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> benn@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (T Cox) writes: >And then, then you fall flat on your collective faces when someone uses >strong rhetoric. This is too much. Grrrh! The "strong retoric" isn't really the problem: the problem is the amazing, utter, complete and total lack of respect for the intellectual capacities of people who don't like Gene Wolfe, and the use of the time-worn, tried and true, ad hominem abusive fallacy. (If you don't know what it is, for Ghod's sake look it up -- we're supposed to be at least partailly educated people here.) > Now we're going to have a little test here. I am going to >write something that will be an exaggeration. I will do it for >dramatic effect. Ready? Take your time. Don't get excited; it's >only exaggeration. It's just a rhetorical device. Now brace yourselves. > > Not one of you is worthy of posting to sf-lovers, you > narrow-minded, gullible GITS! How literal-minded and > dense ... et cetera ... > And you, sirrah, are the diseased result of five hundred years of inbreeding followed by a supposed education in a hovel of higher learning. In addition, I suspect it is true: you do have carnal intercourse with elder female relatives whose congress is not permitted you by either custom or law. Oh, not fair, you say? We shouldn't be personal, you say? And what does your mother have to do with it anyway? Why, don't get excited; it's only exaggeration. It's just a rhetorical device. And what's a Git?
David desJardins1986-02-14
In article <1603@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> benn@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (T Cox) writes [in reply to my reply to a reply to a query about the Book of the New Sun, in which I criticized the one who replied for insulting those who didn't consider it the best SF novel ever written (best I can do; if you missed the original posting just give up...)]: >Flame on. >You total bozos. I really cannot understand such gross stupidity in >people who would otherwise strike me as bright: readers of SF/Fantasy >stories. You amaze me. > You can swallow spiders on Mars. You can read the future >history of the Earth a million hears hence without blinking. You can >handle the twisting and writhing of every physical law of the universe. >And then, then you fall flat on your collective faces when someone uses >strong rhetoric. This is too much. We are talking about two different things here. One is suspension of disbelief when reading fiction. All of us clearly accept this or we would not read SF. But this has nothing to do with the case we are discussing. The original poster noted that he had not particularly enjoyed the first two volumes of BONS, and asked what other people saw in it. The reply said nothing about what was good about the book, just that everyone should think that it is the best SF ever written and insulted those who didn't (clearly including the original poster, since he had already stated that he didn't particularly appreciate the book). > The original poster, whose article has long since vanished >from my site, said things like "there never has been, nor ever could >be, an author as gifted as this one." The actual quote which you are paraphrasing was: In article <3840005@csd2.UUCP> krantz@csd2.UUCP (Michaelntz) writes: "Gene Wolfe is, quite simply, the best novelist ever to write in the science fiction genre. His prose, his ideas - all of it. The best. Hands down." > Do you think he was serious? >Of course not! Great horned toads of Jupiter! This is called, now >read slowly here, e x a g g e r a t i o n. Everyone catch that? >He was overstating the case for dramatic effect. Something any >author can do through the mouth of a character without surprising >any one of you. But let someone make a sweeping generalization >on the net, and everyone jumps down his throat. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Your paraphrase is clearly an exaggeration. The original quote is not. It and the rest of the reply can all be taken as meaning exactly what they say: heaped praise on BONS and insults for those who do not appreciate it. Frankly, I consider it the responsibility of the poster to tell us if he doesn't mean what he says, or better yet not to post at all. If for some reason you are not willing to say what you mean, I think most people would prefer that you just keep your mouth shut instead of making a fool of yourself. > Now we're going to have a little test here. I am going to >write something that will be an exaggeration. I will do it for >dramatic effect. Ready? Take your time. Don't get excited; it's >only exaggeration. It's just a rhetorical device. Now brace yourselves. > > Not one of you is worthy of posting to sf-lovers, you > narrow-minded, gullible GITS! How literal-minded and > dense can a human being be?!? You are not worthy of > even READING this newsgroup! I banish you all forth- > with to the purgatory of net.philosophy, net.religion. > christian, net.women, and net.cooks! Begone! > >There, that wasn't so bad, was it? A little warm, but hardly >threatening to the discriminating reader. The OED defines rhetoric as "The art of using language to persuade or influence others...." The above does neither; it only insults. If you wrote the above in a context in which it could be taken seriously I *would* take it seriously, which means that, as its author, I would cease to take *you* seriously. >Flame off. May the elementals of fire be appeased. >Please, fellow readers, next time someone uses strong language >the way the original poster did, to make an obviously silly >sweeping generalization, remember that there are people in >the world who use that kind of phrasing all the time, in normal >conversation. Just because you don't, that doesn't mean others >cannot. And if it gets under your skin, that is not the other >guy's fault. If the original poster had been a green-tentacled >alien from, say, Planet 10, you'd not have reacted that way. >Shame on you all. I say what I mean. Each person has the right, and the responsibility, to say whatever he wants. If he chooses to say something other than what he means, is it our responsibility to decide what he "really" meant? And, no matter how the original reply was meant (which I maintain it is not my responsibility to decipher), my objection remains. To reply to a posting which says, "I didn't like X much, but I would like to hear why other people liked it," with statements insulting those who dislike X instead of describing what you like about X (as others have done in this case) is completely unacceptable to me. -- David desJardins

Reply to Rick Heli about Gene Wolfe1986-02-10 · 2 messages

TuckerDH1986-02-10
>I have read _The_Shadow_of_the_Torturer_, (first volume of >_The_Book_of_the_New_Sun), but in almost a year have yet to continue >with the rest of the book. In general, I found the writing murky and >the tale rather disconnected. I found that I learned very little of >the political system, social classes, economic systems or even recent >history. This failure of Wolfe's to adequately inform varies directly >with my failure to be interested in his tale. Perfectly understandable - what got me interested in the rest of the novel was his writing style, primarily. Your criticisms are all true, to a small extent, and it most definitely *is* a difficult book to follow, written in a deliberately dense and ponderous style that (as I have said before) forces the reader to slow down from the usual 1980's breakneck pace. I disagree that the writing is "murky" - this implies an involuntary lack of clarity that I do not think is in the work - certainly Wolfe obscures the truth and asks that the reader spend time puzzling things out for himself, sometimes crucially important things. But he does not do this idly, as William F. Buckley does when he speaks. Wolfe, above all, is communicating the act of dreaming (or at least that's my humble interpretation - stop laughing, Charlie...). Dreams are impenetrable, sometimes, even after we wake up and can realize what was going on in them - sometimes there is nothing that we recognize, nothing that we can understand. This would explain the disconnection of the work, which is also a large component of dreams - although I must add that the subsequent volumes explain the previous ones, while they themselves beg more explanation. The disconnectedness does mitigate, though, to a sort of not-so-free association. This could just be the result of reading all of them, that the reader grows used to the style and doesn't ask questions in the hope that they will be answered later. As to your complaint that Wolfe did not inform well enough, you are asking of him the things that you would ask of a hack writer. Didn't you *feel* that you were in another world? Didn't you *feel* that you didn't know what was going on, just like Severian? Didn't you *feel* an incredible decay? The Book Of The New Sun wants you to ask questions and search for answers - it is not a pat sociology, or a future history. It is not dry and it is not going to give in to dryness of the sort that is so often necessary in novels which build worlds. At the heart, Urth is not the central point of reading this book - Severian is. What you will learn of Urth is what you can learn through Severian's eyes and wits, and if sometimes it leaves you hungry, well that's usually the way it is in real life, and in dreams. Wolfe does not need to give you the social rank of every character, to explain why his world works the way it does - to do so would be to cheat you of the rare experience of seeing such a complex, strange, and different place through someone else's eyes, a crowning achievement for any writer. Severian is not so wise or so observant either, and the murk that you complain about may just be the murk that comes as the beginning of self-awareness. This is not to say that as you progress through the novel things become "clearer", that Severian in some way "comes to his senses" - quite the contrary. But he does grow up, and he does see what is wrong and right with Urth, and he does learn the things we all learn as we grow older and a little wiser. It is *this* that is important, not how many legions the Autarch has, or how many people are on Vodalus' side, what their economic interrelations are, who pays the bills, etc. Leave that kind of thing to Herbert and Heinlein (who do it quite well), and leave the dreams and the self-realization to Wolfe. >This seems to me to be particularly true in a story like this where so >many of the characters seem to be insane and therefore take actions >that appear illogical: Master Palaemon gives an extremely valuable >sword to a man who never seemed to interest him and who ought to be >sentenced to death. Agia and Agilus are insanely greedy, consider the >bizarre excuses Agilus gives in the prison cell when he argues to be >spared. The boatman is in a crazed state and Dorcas suffers from >amnesia. The rationality of Dr. Talos, Baldanders and the stuttering >man seem questionable to me as well. I think you are projecting 20th Century notions of rationality and sanity onto characters who are very much not products of the 20th Century. This is a common fault, and most writers of science fiction do not really change their characters' personalities and faults and foibles to reflect the times that they live in - too many are merely 20th Century dudes in some other place and time, using starships like cars and teleportation like phones. Buck Rogers is an archetype for science fiction characters, almost the norm. Certainly *some* of the characters are insane; but they are not the ones that you think are. Wolfe pulls some interesting twists later on. Dorcas suffers from amnesia for a very good reason, which I won't spoil for those who are interested - her story is a very, very strange and fascinating one. But remember that Urth at this time is a world in turmoil, a world of duels and high emotions and melodramatic flourishes, and certainly not cool rational- ity. Read Hugo, Dickens, and Dostoevsky - their times were similar, and their characters were sometimes histrionic, ranting lunatics in the light of later, calmer times. Master Palaemon was not acting illogically nor was he acting without good motivation - if you reread the text leading up to this point, you will see that the Master is portrayed sort of like the gruff schoolmaster with the heart of gold underneath, and that while he wants to uphold the law that would condemn Severian, he spends considerable time trying to find a loophole to save his life. In this context, the Master is acting out of kindness, as a father-figure to a wayward son, not irrationally. Remember his speech about the loving relationship between torturer and "client"? He is not a man without emotion, for all that believing in such a relationship may seem insane to *us* - certainly such beliefs have been held before, and explained in novels (I am especially reminded of works about the French Revolution). Agia, you have correctly indicated, *is* insane, at least on the subject of money and Severian. Insane people often make great characters, especially ones who are sane except on a few points - many of Shakespeare's most memor- able characters (Lear, Richard III, MacBeth, Hamlet, Iago) were somewhat insane, by modern definition. They are just difficult to follow, and they do not do things by accepted literary manners. They explode conventions in some works, they confront, they confuse, and they stay vivid. As for Dr. Talos and Baldanders, well... their portion of the story is fantastic. They are not insane, or at least not insane in any way you would recognize as insane. I can't say anymore. >...having awakened. This probably accounts for the dreamlike nature of >the work, which many people seem to admire highly. I am less than >enthusiastic about it; on the other hand, only reading the first book >is probably tantamount to turning off Beethoven's 5th symphony in the >middle of the second movement in terms of being fair to the author's >complete message... But on the first hand, the author has the >responsibility to make the first story accessible enough that the >others will be read... In time, I may re-read the first book and give >it another chance... Well, I am one of those who admire this dreamlike quality, and I grant you it isn't everyone's cup of tea. I am not so sure that if you didn't feel captivated by "The Shadow Of The Torturer" that it would be worth your time to read the other three volumes - in other words, Wolfe isn't telling you any lies - this is the way the rest of the novel will continue, with the same feel and the same complications that you find, so don't think that he made the first work more inaccessible than the others. By this yardstick, they're all somewhat inaccessible ("*SOMEwhat*?!!" I hear Charlie scream). As to the author's responsibility - booshwah. Authors don't have any responsibility. That's why they're authors and not insurance salesmem or high school teachers. If you look at the history of authors in the western world, you will see that it is a history of irresponsibility, a history of little white lies and some damn big ones, of alcoholism and drug abuse, of suicide, murder, and compulsive gambling, a history of backbiting and sniping at their fellow authors with a vitriol suited for lighting houses on fire. Generally speaking, as soon as an author starts thinking about "responsibility" toward his audience, he's already ceased writing anything very good, or at least ceased writing the kinds of things that got him his audience in the first place (hacks are excluded here, as they are thinking about responsibility from the start). The only thing an author is responsible for is to type neatly, get his pages in order, to avoid misspelling and bad grammar, and to return calls from his agent. And a lot of them don't even do that. >One thing that intrigues me is the theory that Severian has lived this >life before and that all the events depicted have been experienced by >Severian not once, but twice. Anyone have any thoughts or theories on >this? What made someone think of this rather unique thought in >the first place? What evidence is there for it? There is a profound sense of deja vu running through the book. Severian himself, repeatedly, refers to this feeling of having been through this before - not all of the book, but some portions that strike him with that feeling. He indicates in his narrative that the act of writing this down is jogging his memory even as he writes, so that he is bound to feel that he is repeating himself (which is essentially what a first-person narrative is). Also, remember that Severian has a photographic, or a holographic memory - he forgets nothing. With such a gift or a curse, it is impossible to avoid the resonance of previous acts and emotions and sensations with those of the present. A past that we may know nothing about, incidentally. As to the significance of this, there could be many things - it allows Wolfe to flesh out each scene in aching detail that a normal narrative might skip over, as his main character remembers everything. But I think it goes beyond this, as many first-person narrative novels often act as if the narrator remembers everything (When's the last time a narrator said "I'm not too sure about this..." or "I don't really remember..."?). Wolfe wants to get us inside the head of a man who remembers everything, but who isn't exactly the smartest guy running around Urth with a badass sword. It's a fascinating juxtaposition - we always assume that those with perfect memories are intelligent, just because they can remember everything. Severian is like a bird, flooded by so much sensory input that his ability to think is sometimes clouded by his ability to remember, to sense. He's almost a walking tape recorder, without the appearance of volition. And don't you often feel that way in dreams? That everything reeks of your past, that you have done all this before, and better, but that now you have no control, you are just acting out your part in your little play? Generally in dreams what people remember is how they feel, how they sense - such as they common dream of running around naked in a public place, looking for your clothes. Perhaps that is the purpose of Severian's sense of deja vu - and it comple- ments the the reader's own sense of deja vu, such as in a previously men- tioned vignette where Severian tries to describe a picture of Armstrong walking on the moon, or a story told later that is a strange reworking of the Theseus myth. Given your questions, and your underlying interest in the sanity and motives of the characters, whose names you still remember after a year, perhaps your memory and your curiosity are trying to tell you something. Another read of "The Shadow Of The Torturer" might help you decide about The Book Of The New Sun once and for all. If you have any questions, ask Jim Gardner - he knows it better than I. Davis Tucker
Charlie Martin1986-02-12
Ghod, Davis, give us a break ! At least an occasional *paragraph* break. Us old folks have trouble reading those multiscreen paragraph-like blocks. And I don't scream -- I can't: I'm a double-bass.

Gene Wolfe1986-02-14 · 2 messages

Charlie Martin1986-02-14
As some of you may have noticed, I've been careful not to say anything about Gene Wolfe's writing in the couple of notes I've posted under this general heading. This is for the reasonable reason that I simply haven't read anything much of GW's writing. Specifically, I tried _Peace_ some time ago after having met Wolfe at a con and liked him personally. And I didn't like Peace at all. I tried a couple other things. Didn't like them much either. So I simply figured that I didn't like his style (as I don't like Herman Melville's) not because Wolfe can't write, but simply because for one reason or another it didn't strike the required chord in me. And I wasn't going to respond in particular to Davis's note to Rick Heli. Not because I had trouble reading it -- contrary to what I may have suggested in the little "paragraphs" note I posted -- but because I agreed almost completely with it. I tell you, my argumentative nature is really confused when I go agreeing with my best debating opponents. But it happens that someone lent my wife a copy of Shadow of the Torturer recently, and she has been reading it for the last week or so. And sitting at the other end of the couch saying things like "Gee, can he write." Spontaneously, while reading the book. Well, that piqued my interest. So I took the book when she wasn't looking, and read the first ten or so pages. (If you must know, I stopped there because she came back from the kitchen and grabbed it from my hands, saying something to the effect of "*I'm* not finished with it yet!") I wanted to drop this in because I found it just as compelling as Davis apparently did. After a few years of trying hard to learn to write, I find that I am more conscious than I used to be of the mechanics of writing: this makes it harder for me to become engrossed in a story in the first pages. SotT did this in a matter of a couple of paragraphs -- grabbed me, dragged me into the other world through a 6x9 inch page. And at 6'2" and 220 lbs, this is no small trick in itself. And I didn't find it all that inaccessible, honest. It is a bit different style, but then I didn't like Double Star when I first read it -- it was too different from what I had learned to expect. It just takes some adjustment. But it's nothing compared to Stephen Donaldson, who picks out words for nice sound and then uses them in ways that show he didn't understand them at all. That's hard to accept -- this is simply hard to read. * * * But I did want to respond a little bit in terms of an "author's responsibility." Those of you who seem to believe that net.sf-lovers is not a forum for writing about writing (science fiction and fantasy) should n-key here. I do think the author has a couple of responsibilities: the first one is to turn in a text which can be interpreted as a series of words with some kind of sense. I'm making this as loose as possible to include people like the Surrealist and Dadaist poets, James Joyce and William S Burroughs. Whether or not the text produces an imaginary experience of another reality (oh, all right, a vivid dream) may matter to it *as fiction* -- at least in my mind -- but whether or not you accept that idea in terms of fiction, I think it is at least necessary to communicate some intelligence in the technical sense, some intimation that there is a non-randomness to the selection of words. But turning in something in a new language, with a new script, and without something to lead one into the new language, is out of bounds. (And it won't sell very well, either.) ((One of the wonderful things about human language processing is that we can have that sensation from certain kinds of limited randomness, like that produced by poetry-writing programs -- we go out and make up meaning subconsciously if we don't track what's going on.)) The other responsibility of a fiction or fictive writer is to his/her *characters*. You are responsible to them to tell their story as they tell it to you, and to understand them as they are. Then you write it down. It's that easy. (Hah!) But Davis is right about a "responsibility" to one's readers: booshwah. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it. But I (and all writers) have a higher responsibility than to anyone who simply reads it. (Oh, by the way -- about "you don't have to read it." I would make one exception: once something of mine gets published, *that* you have to read! Even you, Davis. Hell, I'll throw in an adjective, just for you.)
wfi1986-02-14
In article <6915@duke.UUCP> crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >I do think the author has a couple of responsibilities: the first one >is to turn in a text which can be interpreted as a series of words >with some kind of sense. I'm making this as loose as possible to >include people like the Surrealist and Dadaist poets, James Joyce and >William S Burroughs. In a sense, the act of turning in a text which is constructed so it can't be interpreted as a series of words is itself making a kind of sense. A year or two ago the New York Times Book Review had a review of a book by a European called "The [something] Codex," which consisted of a series of woodcuts with accompanying 'texts.' The 'texts' were not in any known language or character set, and the example shown was VERY disturbing as were the descriptions of the other illustrations and texts in the book. The effect the author/artist seemed to be striving for was the discovery of a mysterious Codex from an unknown civilization whose illustrations tell something of the civilization's history/arts/sciences/magics. But the texts were of course undecipherable. I felt looking at the illustration and accompanying text something akin to what I felt the first time I examined Max Ernst's "La Semaine de Bonte," disorientation and recognition at the same time. So I suppose something that doesn't make sense on one level can make a sort of meta-sense on another ... if THAT makes any sense. :-) >... But turning in something in a new language, with a new script, >and without something to lead one into the new language, is out of >bounds. (And it won't sell very well, either.) This was something I felt when reading Russell Hoban's "Riddley Walker." I thought he was making us work very hard to get at a rather run-of-the-mill SF story without giving us something unusual in return (I don't mind working if the reward matches the effort, I guess). -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly

The Book of the New Sun1986-02-21

pete1986-02-21
There's been some good discussion in this group about the merits or otherwise of _The Book of the New Sun_. Now I'm going to stick my oar in. C.S. Lewis, who knew a thing or two about writing fantasy and SF said: "To tell how odd things struck odd people is to tell one oddity too many" I think that it is a demonstration of Gene Wolfe's ability that he breaks this rule and (just) gets away with it. There is a sense of living dangerously in the style of the book that is very exciting. I have tried (on a subsequent reading) checking the 'funny words' in a dictionary. This is a bad idea, because most of the time the words are used as much for their sound and feeling as for their literal meaning. Nevertheless, those words that I found (in Chambers' 20th Century) _were_ correctly used _and_ not flogged to death by repetition like Donaldson. BTW, Prince Caspian's horse was called 'Destrier'.

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