What's So Great About Ushas?

Paul B · 14 Jul 2008, 17:40 · from 2008-July.txt.gz

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From: pb.stuff at gmail.com (Paul B)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:40:19 -0400
Subject: (urth) What's So Great About Ushas?
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References: <20080714064747.8F35C2003D at mailserver7.hushmail.com>
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	<93d4039f0807141028l5c561626p1b2bba2871d6aab2 at mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e1fa2e90807141040v45ec13degfd53d049be1a4429 at mail.gmail.com>

If I recall correctly, someone else recently tried this as an explanation.
The problem with it is that if everyone is part of God's Plan, then the
concept of "morality" as we know it doesn't exist and no actions can be
judged - a preposterous conclusion.
However, if you would like to make the case that only some, and not others,
are doing God's will, then you'll have to prove why that is so.

Paul

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 1:28 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Perhaps we're looking for the evidence in the wrong place.  The strongest
> evidence that the Hierogrammates are doing the will of the Increate is that
> the Outsider tells Silk that "When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in
> some ways becoming like a god."
>
> The Hierogrammates certainly pose as angelic beings.  So even if all the
> points made about the Hierogrammates being evil are correct, and even if
> their agenda is indistinguishable from that of Maitre and Mr. Million, they
> *can not help *in some way doing the Increate's will.  This could mean
> that Severian's brining the New Sun is not ultimately a Very Bad Thing after
> all.
>
> Of course, I have no idea how this would work, or what the Increate's
> purpose would be, unless it really is bringing the Green Man future.
>
> On 7/14/08, Paul B <pb.stuff at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> True, I'm curious about that myself!  It seems evidence tying them to the
>> Increate is hard to come by in the text, though at least they do mention it,
>> though perhaps somewhat unusually ("Urth's agonies will be offered to the
>> Increate" or something to that effect).
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:47 AM, <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:58:53 -0400 "Roy C. Lackey"
>>> <rclackey at stic.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >Wolfe shows the Hierogrammates to have their own self-serving
>>> >agenda. He
>>> >shows them as powers above the stage manipulating events on Urth,
>>> >and their
>>> >intentions to continue manipulating the humans of Ushas to achieve
>>>
>>> >their
>>> >desired, and acknowledged, ends. It's too much to quote it all
>>> >here, but it
>>> >is right there in black and white in the dialogue Severian had
>>> >with Apheta
>>> >immediately after the fight with the sailors. In order to achieve
>>> >their
>>> >goals, the Hierogrammates will have to do unto humans exactly what
>>>
>>> >the
>>> >Hieros had done unto them in another universe. As Sev said to
>>> >Gunnie then,
>>> >"That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us
>>>
>>> >through
>>> >the pain we brought them through."
>>> >
>>> >If the Hieros of that other universe sinned by cruelly fashioning
>>> >the
>>> >Hierogrammates (which seems to be axiomatic in the Urth Cycle),
>>> >then the
>>> >Hierogrammates will be guilty of the exact same sin in Briah, and
>>> >will start
>>> >the whole ugly cycle all over again. The morality of the actions
>>> >of
>>> >self-serving creatures of Man's creation is not above the reproach
>>>
>>> >of any
>>> >man.
>>> >
>>> >One's having power that is greater than another does not define
>>> >morality.
>>>
>>> Given all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the
>>> Hierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't
>>> created directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to
>>> man apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is
>>> entirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so
>>> on ...
>>>
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>>
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