What's So Great About Ushas?

John Watkins · 18 Jul 2008, 20:18 · from 2008-July.txt.gz

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From: john.watkins04 at gmail.com (John Watkins)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:18:52 -0400
Subject: (urth) What's So Great About Ushas?
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-W4539F81E1FDFA587441AA1D7890 at phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-W4539F81E1FDFA587441AA1D7890 at phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <93d4039f0807181318g7e141aacs7348ac391e8cae1e at mail.gmail.com>

I don't know about Paul, but I'd be more interested if we focus on the
question of whether the Hierogrammates are intended to be (unfallen) angels
by Gene Wolfe.  Without my books at hand, the argument for this appears to
be:

1)  "Holy" is part of their name.

2)  Tzadkiel has a winged form that Severian identifies as an angel.

3)  Severian thinks Hierogrammates serve the Increate.

4)  Wolfe referred to Tzadkiel as an "angel" in an interview.

The argument against the Hierogrammates being angels, as I understand it, is

1)  Catholic theology posits that angels are perfectly moral, but the
Hierogrammates frequently engage in morally dubious if not outright evil
behavior.

2)  Hierogrammates, unlike angels, are not direct creations of God.

3)  Most of the arguments that Hierogrammates are angels are hearsay.

I think these are both colorable arguments, but I come down on the "not"
side.  The Hierogrammates are obviously *spoken of *as angels, but they are
just as obviously not two things that are *essential *to the meaning of the
word "angel."

On 7/18/08, b sharp <bsharporflat at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> The discussion would become quite interesting if Paul B was a Christian.
> Are you Paul?
>
> I really have no quarrel with a person who accepts no entity as a moral
> superior and who
> holds God and angels to the highest standards of his own morality. In the
> real world.
>
> But this is fiction. Do Wolfe's intentions matter at all?   Paul, if you
> are arguing that the
> Hierogrammates are of questionable morality by your standards I think your
> point is made,
> very, very clearly.
>
> If you are arguing that the Hierogrammates are of sub-angelic status by
> Wolfe's standards
> I think you need to use a lot more text quotes to support that.
>
> But either way, answering that simple question would clarify this entire
> discussion:
>
> Are you judging the Hierogrammates by your moral standards or Wolfe's?
>
> -bsharp
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