Severian as reverse Christ (or something)

John Watkins · 21 Nov 2008, 20:29 · from 2008-November.txt.gz

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From: john.watkins04 at gmail.com (John Watkins)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:29:36 -0500
Subject: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
In-Reply-To: <49271795.10703 at verizon.net>
References: <mailman.15862.1227295927.21489.urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
	<49271795.10703 at verizon.net>
Message-ID: <93d4039f0811211229i6a481223rcbdbae2a791d860 at mail.gmail.com>

I think what's being undersold here is the significance of Wolfe's own
Catholicism.  I think it's pretty unlikely that we're meant to
understand Severian literally Jesus.
In fact, I submit that the differences between Severian's behavior and
that of Christ are likely significant to the ideas Wolfe wants to
convey.

On 11/21/08, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> Just to stir the pot again---if Severian IS Apu Punchau, is there any reason
> why he can't BE Christ? Do we not live in the same universe as Severian?
> Therefore, wouldn't the Conciliator "echo" back to the beginning of time and
> tickle Jesus with his noodly appendage?
>
> I find it fitting that traditional Catholic myth (if I can say that)
> actually places the Second Coming at the center of its cosmology, and the
> First Coming is just a foreshadowing of the Second---though it does not
> always seem that way. (Crudely put.) Therefore, it follows that what is
> really important about the story in BotNS (the plot, I guess) is not any
> Crucifixion, but the Future Return and Reconciliation (whatever that's
> called; it's been years since grad school). So Severian's "conversion" to
> the time-transcendent Conciliator (the godhead) should in fact have ripple
> effects back to the beginning of this universe, and there could be any
> number of Messiahs whose past existence is thus rendered rather beside the
> point. And so it's irrelevant whether Severian is Christ, just as it's
> meaningless to ask if Frodo is Christ (he is, but is he a Christ for the
> Third Age of Middle-Earth or a Christ for the 1940s of Earth?).
>
> In a sense, this novel is extraordinarily arrogant for what it tries to do.
> In others, of course, it is almost literally "religious."
>
> I also want to comment in this context that if I were to argue that Wolfe's
> approach is to subvert pagan beliefs with Christian ones, I would begin with
> Latro. Wolfe is extremely well-read about the Greeks and really seems to
> understand their thinking, which is almost alien to us (they were
> unconcerned by torture, for example). And there may be no richer vein for
> this kind of approach than the world that early Christians found themselves
> in---one that was primarily Greek in thought, but also superficially Roman
> and what used to be called "oriental," (e.g., cults in which men unman
> themselves to reach the godhead) and in which being Christian was not just a
> routine matter of attending church and paying taxes.
>
> From there I would move on to the well-trod ground of the Christian
> propagandists in pagan/medieval Europe (Wizard Knight, Castleview), then
> Christ on other planets, Christ in other universes, Christ in the far
> future, etc.
>
> David
>
>
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:10:48 +0000
> > From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> > Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
> > To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> > Message-ID: <W9404019816247571227294648 at webmail25>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > yup.
> > it's all Jordon's fault.
> > nice to see you poke your lurking head out.
> > (tomorrow we'll have our Monomachy shirts)
> > (anyone in SF, Saturday night, Hotel Utah, Orange Tulip Conspiracy is
> playing. Good instrumental band. they're selling tee shirts with my
> Monomachy illustrations.
> http://www.myspace.com/orangetulipconspiracy   )
> >
> > I'm with you in that I don't find the manipulations and free will
> incompatible.  It's an old dilemma, but it's clear to me that God puts
> things in our paths (or puts us on the path) and it's up to us to make our
> choices.
> >
> > I do have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the time loops.
> > I suppose you're right about Severian being the Conciliator all the time,
> just as he is Apu Punchau.  As I've mentioned, the mechanics aren't that
> important to me. what is important is that his life is a loop (which he
> outright says at one point of speculation).  Which is why I'm CONVINCED that
> the Amphisbaena is one of the most central symbols in the work.  Interesting
> that it's not simply an Uroboros eating it's tail, but a two headed serpent
> eating it's own head. This really speaks to the loopy nature of time within
> this cosmology better than a easy linear cycle of death and resurrection.
> >
> > speaking of strange loops, I'm so glad you recommended these books to me.
> I finished Urth and started Shadow again the same day. I'm back to the
> beginning of Urth again.  Really some of the best fiction I've ever sunk my
> teeth into.  Thanks again.
> >
> > ~SonOfWitz
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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