Severian as reverse Christ (or something)

brunians at brunians.org · 23 Nov 2008, 16:09 · from 2008-November.txt.gz

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From: brunians at brunians.org (brunians at brunians.org)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 11:09:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
In-Reply-To: <49297EB9.6040601 at hyraxes.com>
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That's it.


.


> The secret that I recall is that of all the parts of the Commonwealth
> supposedly subject to the Autarch, the Guild is the only one that will
> always obey. At least that is what Severian was told by one of the
> Masters.
>
> (I thought it was near the end of Citadel, but I didn't find it with a
> cursory search.)
>
> -- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha
>
> Craig Brewer wrote:
>> Where and when, exactly? I've never been sure if I quite caught what was
>> going on with that. (Am I dense and it's apparent to everyone else?)
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>
>> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:35:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
>>
>> Severian certainly does tell the Secret Of The Guild.
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>> There is, of course, the "secret" of the Guild which Palaemon and
>>> Gurloes
>>> tell Severian when he's made journeyman. Some people on the list have,
>>> interestingly enough, speculated that this "secret" is that the
>>> Torturer's
>>> Guild used to be the Catholic Church itself. The speculation that they
>>> used to be the Inquisition would fit rather well with that. As far as I
>>> recall, Severian never says anything else about this "secret," although
>>> he
>>> does claim to have broken his promise never to tell it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
>>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:02:46 PM
>>> Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
>>>
>>>  I don't have any textual basis for this, but I thought of the
>>> Torturers
>>> as tracing their lineage back to Typhon. This is sort of the reverse of
>>> your impression; the institution would have started out as secular, and
>>> then acquired its mystical aspects in order to maintain its cohesion
>>> over
>>> time.
>>>
>>> --
>>> "When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is
>>> about
>>> to set." -- Lin Yutang
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org
>>>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:44:16 -0800
>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) Severian as reverse Christ (or something)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 22, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In similar vein, discussing "what offices a Christian man may
>>>>>> hold", he refers to a recent case wherein a Church member had the
>>>>>> opportunity to receive high public office as a magistrate.
>>>>>> Tertullian argues that it would be morally impossible for this man
>>>>>> to satisfy both the Gospel's demands and those of Roman law, for
>>>>>> that would require him to abstain not only from all public pagan
>>>>>> sacrifices, oaths, etc., but also from "sitting in judgment on
>>>>>> anyone's life or character, . . . neither condemning nor fore-
>>>>>> condemning; binding no one, imprisoning /or torturing no one/".^*2
>>>>>>
>>>> <http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html#FN_2
>>>>
>>>>>>> * These are the earliest known explicit Christian statements on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the morality of torture.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Wolfe may have drawn some ideas from Tertullian, but he surely
>>>>> wouldn't consider him to be the last word on Christian morality. A
>>>>> couple of centuries later St. Augustine wrote on the idea of a "just
>>>>> war," which could be fought by righteous Christian soldiers.
>>>>> Tertullian ended up being declared a heretic (not about pacificism,
>>>>> but about whether a new prophecy could have the same force as
>>>>> scripture).
>>>>>
>>>>> Tertullian had the luxury in the third century of belonging to a
>>>>> persucuted group that could stand outside and condemn the system.
>>>>> But later the Church became the accepted state religion, and took
>>>>> over a great deal of power in the Middle Ages. At that point,
>>>>> soldiers, magistrates, and even torturers were at least nominally
>>>>> Christians. It's a difficult moral dilemma and one that Wolfe
>>>>> doesn't shrink from presenting in all its horror.
>>>>>
>>>> On that note, I've taken the Torturer's Guild as a sort of Inquisition
>>>> that's become a more or less secular institution of the State. As if
>>>> the State absorbed them and gradually became more and more ashamed of
>>>> the Guild, yet kept it around in diminished form for their dirty work.
>>>> but it's lost it's original purpose.   Of course that's all
>>>> speculation, but it works for me.
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>>
>>
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