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Internet Megantic · 20 Jul 1998, 09:53
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From: Internet Megantic <support at megantic.net> Subject: (urth) unsuscribe Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:53:47 Message-ID: <urth-v0017-0051 at digest.urth.net> X-Urthmirror-Source: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0017/0051.shtml MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsuscribe At 03:43 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote: > >-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n006 -------------- > > 001 - adam louis stephanides <a - Severian and the White Fountain > 002 - adam louis stephanides <a - Il (Peter) Principe > 003 - Internet Megantic <suppor - unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005 > 004 - "Alex David Groce" <adgro - Eleanor Bold > 005 - "J. Schultz" <jschultz@wc - Autarch > 006 - m.driussi at genie.com - (urth) Questions Keep Questing > 007 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) David as Maitre 2 > 008 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney > 009 - Peter Westlake <peter@har - Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth > 010 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth > >URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.1 --------------- > >From: adam louis stephanides <astephan at students.uiuc.edu> >Subject: Severian and the White Fountain >Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII >In-Reply-To: <199807142021.NAA29492 at lists1.best.com> > > > >On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote: > >> Adam asked: >> >Why is it necessary for anybody to "bring the White Fountain" to Urth? = Why >> can't the Hierogrammates just send it?< >>=20 >> This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings = who >> serve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their a= rea >> and decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle. > >What I meant to ask was not "Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes >White Fountains to everybody who need one?" but "Having decided to give >Urth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth, >assuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly? Why go through >this routine of having Severian "become" the White Fountain as well, which >he then "guides" to Urth, or at least believes he does. >=20 >> Also: > <And if someone has to bring it, why must it be an Autarch?> >>=20 >> Severian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right t= he >> representative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small portion >> of it.=20 > >True, but Severian's "trial" is not, as he origingally believes, to >determine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to >determine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun. So >it's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio >"representative of Urth." > >--Adam > > > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.2 --------------- > >From: adam louis stephanides <astephan at students.uiuc.edu> >Subject: Il (Peter) Principe >Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:35:59 -0500 (CDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII >In-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362 at lists1.best.com> > > >mantis, > >I was away for a few days, or I would have responded to your post earlier. >I have a few minor cavils, which I'll discuss elsewhere, but I found it >admirably clear and enlightening. > >Unfortunately, it only leaves me more baffled regarding _Urth_ as a whole. >In fact, it now seems to me that _Urth_ is at least as obscure as >_Castleview_. To start with, the Hierodules have been supporting the >"rickety" political structure of the Commonwealth for a thousand years or >more, apparently solely so that at the end of this time Severian, the >man destined to bring the New Sun, will be Autarch. This is too >reminiscent of _The Sirens of Titan_ for my taste. More to the point, it >makes even more urgent the questions I asked in an earlier post: why must >an Urthman bring the New Sun, why an Autarch, and why Severian? I'm not >as confident that the answers I gave are correct as I was then, but I >haven't seen any better answers. For that matter, I'm doubtful about the >whole punishment-and-redemption-of-Urth schema: if the "redemption" >involves wiping out 99.9% of Urth's population, one would think the >"punishment" could be dispensed with as superfluous. > >I'm also baffled by the course of events surrounding Severian's "trial." >Why is he led to think that his trial will be like his predecessor's? Is >it just so he will be a more humane ruler as Autarch? But then why isn't >he told the truth as soon as he leaves Urth? > >And what is the function of the battle royal between the sailors and the >aquastors? Were the Hierogrammates really willing, after all those years >of preparation, to risk the survival of their race on the outcome of that >battle? =20 > >In short, your post made me realize that so far, the first half of _Urth_ >doesn't make sense for me. Any help you, or anyone else of course, can >give me would be most appreciated. (If this post seems querulous, it's a >reflection of my desperation.) > >--Adam > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.3 --------------- > >From: Internet Megantic <support at megantic.net> >Subject: unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005 >Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:32:19 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > >At 21:10 18-07-98 -0700, you wrote: >> >>-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n005 -------------- >> >> 001 - "William H. Ansley" <wans - Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Spa= ce >> 002 - "Robert Borski" <rborski@ - Sanderson's Abandonment >> 003 - "Alice Turner" <al@interp - Re: Digest urth.v017.n004 >> 004 - Derek Bell <dbell at maths.t - Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Spa= ce >> 005 - raster at highfiber.com (Cha - Re: Claudius >> >>URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.1 --------------- >> >>From: "William H. Ansley" <wansley at warwick.net> >>Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space >>Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 -0400 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >>In-Reply-To: <199807180216.TAA14355 at lists1.best.com> >> >>>One of the more puzzling names in THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS to be sourc= ed >>>is the Country of Friends. It's cited by the abos as the possible homepo= rt >>>of the star-faring Homo sapiens pangalacticus, who've traveled to Saint >>>Anne in the distant past, and mentioned in the same breath as Atlantis a= nd >>>Gondwanaland. >>> >>>I'm now speculating it relates to the Aztecs. >>> >>>This is because Texas--where Gene Wolfe grew up--is derived from the Ind= ian >>>word "texia," meaning "friends." And since Texas was once part of Mexico, >>>it's possible the Country of Friends generally refers to Aztecan >>>civilization. >> >>I like this too. >> >>I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs >>elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find >>the reference, I will certainly post. >> >>William Ansley >> >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.2 --------------- >> >>From: "Robert Borski" <rborski at coredcs.com> >>Subject: Sanderson's Abandonment >>Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:26:00 -0500 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >>Earlier, in regards to my Continuing Westward post, Sean Whalen (aka prio= n) >>wrote: >> >>"This seems to fit, but how does it fit in that he originally thought >>that she stabbed Sanderson? He didn't just decide to leave him, he >>thought that he was dead." >> >>This may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom >>Rickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS >>THREE and the other collections. Or it may be simple irony. Paris, the >>Great Seducer, undone by his own lust (whereas the Paris of legend stakes= a >>claim to the most beautiful woman in the world and precipitates a war). >> >>Of course, all of the Homeric correspondences are rather loosely clumped >>together--hence the notion of Greek Odysseus and Trojan Paris as >>shipmates--so the search for parallels my be intriniscally flawed to begin >>with, at least if we expect 100% fidelity with the Illiad/Odyssey. >> >>Also, what I forgot to mention in my Cherry Jubilee piece is that KGB age= nt >>Vera Oussenko, who, as you mention, is arrested, represents truth, which >>she is seeking, even though she gets it wrong (Vera =3D veritas), only in= the >>inverted value system of CJ she's "punished"--not being allowed to >>disembark, she's spared the hell of Mars. >> >>Robert Borski >> >> >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.3 --------------- >> >>From: "Alice Turner" <al at interport.net> >>Subject: Re: Digest urth.v017.n004 >>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:16:27 -0400 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset=3D"iso-8859-1" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> >>>Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if Owen/Ouen is >>>considered to be the Welsh/Celtic equivalent of Eugene, doesn't that mean >>>Sev's father might also be called Gene? >> >> >>From the Oxford book of English Christian names: >> >>OWEN: a common Welsh name; in Middle English romances often spelled Owain, >>Owayne, Ywain. It has been supposed to be derived from Latin Eugenius...s= ee >>Ewan. (Ouen) >> >>EWEN: this name, now confined to Scotland, was once common in England...It >>is probably the same as Irish and Gaelic Eoghan 'a youth,' which is frequ= ent >>in Celtic legend and history. Eoghan is usually derived from Primitive >>Celtic Eugenius 'well-born,' from which is derived Old Welsh Euguein whi= ch >>later became Middle Welsh Ewein, Ywein, whence modern Welsh Owain, Owen. >> >>Bravo, scolex. Thank you. >> >>-alga- >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.4 --------------- >> >>From: Derek Bell <dbell at maths.tcd.ie> >>Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space >>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:22:08 +0100 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >>In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 EDT." >> <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com> >> >>In message <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com>, "William H. Ansley" writes: >>>I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs >>>elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find >>>the reference, I will certainly post. >> >> I think it's in the short story _Feather Tigers_, IIRC. It >>occurs in the dialog between the main protagonist and the sky(space?) >>yacht. >> >> Derek >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.5 --------------- >> >>From: raster at highfiber.com (Charles Dye) >>Subject: Re: Claudius >>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:57 -0600 (MDT) >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >> >>CRCulver at aol.com writes: >> >>>Alex: >>>< Has there been any discussion on the list (sorry, I'm new and haven't = had >>>time to exhaustively browse the archives) of similarities between Severian and >>>Claudius, both the historical emperor and the charming narrator of the t= wo >>>Robert Graves novels?> >> >>>The point that comes to mind first is that both Claudius and Severian pl= an to >>>write a manuscript they believe no one will read and get rid of it in a = lead >>>coffer. >> >>The dead giveaway, for me anyhow, was the scene where Severian produces o= ne >>of 'his' aes in the era of Typhon: >> >> He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right. >> Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. >> Don't suppose you noticed." >> >> "No," I said. "I never thought of it." >> >> Hadelin nodded and pushed back his chair. "A man doesn't shave himse= lf >> sidewise. See you in the morning, sieur, madame." >> >>Compare with a scene from "Claudius the God" chapter 6 : >> >> It pleased my vanity to have my head on the coins.... Portraits on >> coins, however, are always disappointing because they are executed in >> profile, and it comes as a shock, when one sees it in a portrait, that >> one really looks like that to people standing beside one. For one's >> full face, because of the familiarity that mirrors give it, a certain >> toleration and even affection is felt; but I must say that when I fir= st >> saw the model that the mint-masters were striking for me I grew angry >> and asked whether it was intended to be a caricature. >> >>Robert Graves once did a translation of "The Lives of the Twelve Caesars" >>in which each Emperor's chapter was illustrated with the appropriate aure= us. >> >>raster at highfiber.com >> >> >> >>--------------- END urth.v017.n005 --------------- >> >> >>*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ >> >> >/Serges >Internet Megantic >http://www.megantic.net/ > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.4 --------------- > >From: "Alex David Groce" <adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu> >Subject: Eleanor Bold >Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:57:36 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > > I've often wondered if the name "Eleanor Bold" in PEACE is simply a >coincidence, or is intended to mean something. I've seen Wolfe refer to >Trollope before, particularly in an essay or interview when he was discuss= ing >the value to a writer of having a job other than writing (I think this is = in >CASTLE OF DAYS). So, it seems reasonable to assume Wolfe's read BARCHESTER >TOWERS, and possibly all of the Barchester books, and it is an intentional >effect. But what exactly is it supposed to suggest? Any ideas? > >--=20 >"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:= 32 >-- >Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu) >Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction) >'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President >608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366 >http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.5 --------------- > >From: "J. Schultz" <jschultz at wcnet.org> >Subject: Autarch >Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:42:38 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >It takes me a while to get around to reading all my mail. This is in >response to the difference between Autarch and Monarch. As we have all >figured by now Autarch means one who rules themselves. This idea works in= to >one of the themes I see present in the first set of books (tBotNS). At ea= ch >step in Severian's development we see him cast off the power of one >authority after another. He breaks his ties from the authority of the >guild, the Archon and his post as Lictor, Typhon, etc. It all leads up to >the point where just before the Lake people attack the castle of Baldander= s, >when Severian says (to paraphrase) I began to follow the Increate's >authority above all others. Severian has become his own man, as it were. >He decides for himself what is right and wrong, moral and evil, with a >personal relationship with God. Thus I feel that the title "Autarch" is >symbolic of this change and that the title has more thematic meaning, rath= er >than any real practical meaning in the way of legal proceedure. A rose is= a >rose is a rose. Or, it doesn't really matter what you call him, the idea = is >that he is the top dog and no one is higher, the one man who rules himself. >As we find out, however, the Autarch is the subject of the Hierodules and >other higher powers (at least in some sense of the word). We can't forget >that the message of tBotNS is basically spiritual and religious, whether we >like it or not. In my mind it is the redemption of a torturer who is lost >in an immoral and decaying world. > >As far as what would have happened had Appian let Severian enter Yesod, he >most likely would have failed having not learned the important lessons that >were to come. However, He would have EATEN Appian's brains AT THAT TIME. >Appian even says, "Gee, sorry I'm so shocked but I thought I had more time= ." >Which leads me to believe that Appian knows that Sev will take the throne >and he knows that to take the throne he (Appian) has to be dead. I would >balk too if my replacement walked in the door and said, "Well, I'm ready, >take me to the garden and get your brains ready." While Sev doesn't say >this it is percieved this way by Appian. > >Let me say that the story has already faded in my mind and mingled with ha= lf >ideas, my own experiences, and the way I would like it to be. (as I'm sure >happens to us all) > >One timeless question (FunkMonkey steps in line behind hundreds of >philosophers, ancient to modern) How much free will does Severian have? >When does Tra. KNOW Severain has passed. Have they engineered him from the >begining and so no test is needed? He has some power from the White >Fountain long before heading into space, as Sev himself says, 'as if the >presentment of his future came back through time to him.' Assuming he >raised Triskle from the dead he has had his 'powers' from the begining. >Everyone on Urth in Sev's time knows of the Concilliator. The Concilliator >is Sev returning triumphant. Thus Severian has already suceeded before he >begun! Or has he? Time travel always throws me through a logic loop. Li= ke >asking the question "If I went back in time and killed my past self, who >would grow up to kill me?" Any thoughts? This could be and endless >discussion. > >FunkMonkey > with the logical MonkeyWrench > >J. Schutlz >jschultz at wcnet.org > > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.6 --------------- > >From: m.driussi at genie.com >Subject: (urth) Questions Keep Questing >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 04:11:00 GMT >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Adam, > >FWIW I didn't take your post in a querulous mode. And I'm glad that >something I wrote seemed clear and enlightening, but of course I was >only shooting in the dark and I can't hope to hit a homer every time, >even if it is a room full of ancient Greek poets who are blind, just >to mix metaphors (and this one is for raster--don't think I didn't >laugh on that homer quip). > >I'm comfortable with the paradoxes I hold in suspension on this one. >If I can continue to explain what I see, maybe you can see it even if >you don't particularly believe it. > >The Peter Principle is about the triumph of mediocrity, I think. > >Il Principe is Machiavelli's work about amoral statecraft. > >Peter Wright's papers on the "Fictions of the New Sun" provide a >Machiavellian reading (which, in turn, makes Severian's narrative >much closer to Herbert's DUNE series than Tolkien's LOTR). > >"Sirens of Titan" is another good touchstone and I'm glad you brought >it up. This is the "sarcastic" or "cosmic joke" answer to the Big >Question, and I think we can all agree that it isn't an >overwhelmingly fitting solution to the Briah/Yesod situation. > >Some of your questions can be answered: The situation facing Severian >rides a tightrope between free-will and pre-destination. > >This by itself is a huge topic. Philosophy, physics, metaphysics, >etc. > >In practical terms, we rejoice that Severian took the brown book, >rather than Canog's Book of the New Sun, because this "opens the >loop" and makes the oracular power of the tales work their magic on >Severian, which then helps him behave in a certain way, which is then >faithfully recorded as Canog's Book of the New Sun. If Severian had >taken Canog's, it would have been a closed loop "blueprint"; Severian >would have been reduced to being a robot--and maybe would have >resisted doing it, and the whole thing would collapse. > >Likewise, nobody with any authority and/or knowledge could ever "tell >Severian the truth" or "what to do" or anything like that. For the >same reason. They tell him just enough and just in time. He has to >be guided to the right decision, but he cannot be simply told, nor >forced to do something. > >Maybe we could liken it to developing a photograph: it is done in the >dark, by mysterious rituals and formula, but there is a goal in mind >and it begins to materialize until finally it is done and we can turn >on the light and see it clearly. > >As for why does Yesod care. Well, one model is that Briah and Yesod >are two halves of the same creature--one is male and one is female, >to use the crudest analogy. They must have an exchange of >information to ensure their own future survival: Urth gets a New Sun, >and Yesod gets the next stage closer to Hieros . . . who will then >make hierogrammates. It all is a reproductive rite; as if homo >sapiens were to guide australopithecus toward becoming homo erectus, >so that homo erectus would give way to homo sapiens. > >Which brings us to another dicotomy: the breaking of the human >experience into Pure Order and the wild things. Cyriaca's tale of >posthistory tells us that the First Empire was founded upon the one >(Order) and brought down by the rejected other (non-order). The >implication being (I think) that there should be a balance, within >the individual and within the culture. > >Not to be "zen" about it, nor too smug, but questions about the very >mysterious first half of URTH should not be focused entirely in the >"logical" or "rational" mode. If Order leads to brick walls of >confusion, see if Non-order can lead to a doorway. If "modern >science" can't answer, try "cave painting poetry" instead. > >If you haven't already, you really should read Wright's essays. You >might find that they fit you like a tee. > >=3Dmantis=3D > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.7 --------------- > >From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com> >Subject: (urth) David as Maitre 2 >Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:39:50 -0700 (PDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > >This is Sean Whalen (prion). > >I think that in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ the junior officer who >reviews VRT's case is actually David. First, David is known to have >gone to the capital after his father's death, presumably to follow his >love of political power. Plenty of time has passed since the murder >and VRT's arrest for him to have attained such a position and to have >held it for a fairly significant amount of time. Also, he is called a >junior officer and the other officer he meets is called a brother >officer. This is an allusion to the fact that David is younger than >his "brother" No. 5. The other person the j.o. is mentioned in this >story to be younger than is his slave, who is probably one of the >clones or altered clones of Maitre. This seems to be plenty, in a >Wolfe book, to link him to David. More, he is only addressed as >Maitre, just like his father was, continuing the chain of linkage.=20 >The other officer also says that he always was a night owl, which is >similar to the way that David and No. 5 stayed up when they were young >in FHC. Also, when he hits the slave, it is like a reversal of when >No. 5 accidently stabbed him when he was fighting the other clone of >Maitre with four arms. > >prion >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.8 --------------- > >From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com> >Subject: (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:05:28 -0700 (PDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > >This is Sean Whalen (prion). > >I just wanted to put down a few minor miscellaneous points I have in >my mind about _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_. > >Today I saw a show about Neanderthals. It seems that their >flintworkers could make a blade that is the sharpest known to man, as >could the later humans. The discusser said that it is even sharper >than a modern surgeon's scalpel. Marsch talks about how flint can be >chipped with little dexterity when he talks to RT speculating about >how he could make the implements he sells as Annese with his arthritic >hands. VRT probably used flint to cut out the first pages of Marsch's >diary, which are said in the story to have been cut out with an >instrument sharper than a scalpel. > >VRT may have bought the brass circumciser to use on himself, so that >he would not be discovered to be impersonating Marsch if his books >were found. Did he ever get to use it? I don't know if anyone in >authority ever saw him naked, and he asked not to be strip-searched by >the men who arrest him. > >Isn't it possible that VRT didn't kill Marsch, but that he was killed >by the tire-tiger? In the journal, written by VRT, it says that >Marsch was attacked by the waiting tiger when he came down from the >tree, and that he should have been mauled but was absurdly lucky, and >was only knocked back into a thorn bush. It seems to me that the >tiger actually killed Marsch, and that VRT wrote that Marsch survived >so that he could take his place. Otherwise, there's no reason to >include this passage at all, as it seems ridiculous that Marsch could >actually save himself if the tiger attacked as he came down the tree. > >Again, I wonder if VRT actually killed the cat-girl or just wrote that >so that he wouldn't have to write about her interactions with Marsch, >which would have been very different from the interactions he had with >her, and too difficult for him to make up. When he begins to write in >the journal, he also talks about "we" a lot, apparently about him and >the mules, but perhaps not. > >I don't think that I believe Robert Borski's idea that RT is actually >an abo himself. It seems odd that his wife and son have green eyes >when he doesn't. VRT thinks he's a human, he says that what happens >to his hands will keep him from his profession, implying that he had >tool-using hands before. He can operate the buttons that his wife >can't. > >Also, I believe that there was some discussion about what VRT and >Maitre believe about Jeannine's genetic relations when VRT says that >she is the daughter of "shall we say an earlier 'version'" of No. 5.=20 >It seems possible that he meant a version as the parent of the Gene >Wolfe genome, rather than an earlier person in the line of clones.=20 >However, in jail VRT says that Jeannine is genetically Gene's >daughter. At that time, remember, VRT didn't know that No. 5 knew he >was a clone, and was thus just being subtle. > >prion >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.9 --------------- > >From: Peter Westlake <peter at harlequin.co.uk> >Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:23:52 +0100 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >References: <199807022151.OAA05425 at lists1.best.com> >In-Reply-To: <199807051857.LAA20487 at lists1.best.com> > >At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: >> >>prion wrote: >> >>> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) >>> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America geographically >>> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is described as >>> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer is >>> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it >>> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't >>> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the >>> first place. >> >>I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the >>south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was >>asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But >>reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant >>phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- >>most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a >>whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. > >Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find >the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and >was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the >South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West Indies. >Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: > >>And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her axis, wou= ld >>that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear to be t= he >>same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the tropical >>regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are somewhat >>arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the world with >>the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe upside-down. > >(I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) > >It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, >while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be >under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. >I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we >would expect them to flow East. > >In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and >the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think >(doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this >really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. >Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left >or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the >Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, >given his total inability to follow directions. > >SBear. > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.10 --------------- > >From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > >This is Sean Whalen (prion). > >---Peter Westlake wrote: >> >> At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: >> > >> >prion wrote: >> > >> >> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) >> >> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America >geographically >> >> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is >described as >> >> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer >is >> >> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it >> >> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't >> >> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the >> >> first place. >> > >> >I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the >> >south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was >> >asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But >> >reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant >> >phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- >> >most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a >> >whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. >>=20 >> Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find >> the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and >> was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the >> South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West >Indies. > >Wheww. How's that for a bundle of citations? > >I don't remember Wolfe ever saying this, and it doesn't appear >possible (see below). > >> Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: >>=20 >> >And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her >axis, would >> >that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear >to be the >> >same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the >tropical >> >regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are >somewhat >> >arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the >world with >> >the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe >upside-down. > >Vodalus was talking about the magnetic axis flipping, which has >happened often before on Earth. > >North and south may seem arbitrary, but east and west definitely >aren't. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Assuming a >human has a head in one direction and feet in the other, it is >possible to determine which side is left and which right, and they are >different. But anyway, with a person's left to the west and right to >the east, he would be facing north, as happens to Severian (see below). > >> (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) >>=20 >> It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, >> while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be >> under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. >> I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we >> would expect them to flow East. >>=20 >> In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and >> the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think >> (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this >> really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. >> Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left >> or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the >> Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, >> given his total inability to follow directions. >>=20 >> SBear. > >As I understand it, the entire geography is like this: the sea level >is lower because the colder temperature has frozen more water into the >ice caps. There is thus more land. South America is in the general >area it is now, with a similar distribution of continents. Nessus is >on the west coast, west of the "Andes" and perhaps on land that is >currently underwater. The Gyoll flows from it's source in the Andes >west to it's mouth on the west coast. East of the Andes is the Amazon >jungle. North in North America is the country of the Ascians. West >are the Xanthic lands (Asia). > >To explain: in the book it says that to the south are the narrow >lands and the southern archipelago. This could refer to either what >is currently north or south, however, it also says that to the north >is the waist of the world and north of that the Ascians. There is no >isthmus to what we call the south. Therefore, the directions are the >same as we use today. The Ascians live in North America, the waist is >the Isthmus of Panama and environs. The narrow lands are the narrow >southern part of South America. Also, the islands may not be the ones >there today, but lower ones revealed by the receded ocean. Severian >also says that the north is hotter, in some sections of the books. > >The rivers flow west because he's west of the Andes. There's also >more land in that area because of the sea level. > >I've already discussed how Severian's northward journey helps confirm >this. > >prion >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >--------------- END urth.v017.n006 --------------- > > >*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ > > /Serges Internet Megantic http://www.megantic.net/ *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/
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