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Internet Megantic · 21 Jul 1998, 20:28
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From: Internet Megantic <support at megantic.net> Subject: (urth) unsuscribe: Digest urth.v017.n007 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:28:03 Message-ID: <urth-v0017-0062 at digest.urth.net> X-Urthmirror-Source: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0017/0062.shtml MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsuscribe At 19:19 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote: > >-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n007 -------------- > > 001 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) Jeannine as abo > 002 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) Lexicon Urthus > 003 - Internet Megantic <suppor - unsuscribe > 004 - Dan Parmenter <dan at lec.co - The Phantom Rickshaw > 005 - adam louis stephanides <a - A few minor cavils > 006 - m.driussi at genie.com - (urth) Autarchs are commoners > 007 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) Autarchial dynasties > >URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.1 --------------- > >From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com> >Subject: (urth) Jeannine as abo >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:49:10 -0700 (PDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > >This is Sean Whalen (prion). > >Yet another piece of evidence that Aunt Jeannine in _The Fith Head of >Cerberus_ is really an abo impostor. > >On page 52 of the Orb edition, No. 5 describes her withered legs as >"like the sticks David and I used as little boys, when doing parlor >magic, we wished Mr. Million to believe us lying prone when we were in >fact crouched beneath our own supposed figures." > >He's comparing her legs to devices used to deceive and make one thing >seem to be another, to conceal. > >prion >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.2 --------------- > >From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com> >Subject: (urth) Lexicon Urthus >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:51:00 -0700 (PDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > >This is Sean Whalen (prion). > >Concerning the geography discussion, Michael Andre-Driussi's (mantis') >_Lexicon Urthus_ has an excellent map illustrating my points in the >previous post. > >Seeing those carved mountains has reminded me of the question of how >all of them could have been carved in the one to two thousand years >Wolfe said had passed between Typhon and Severian's time. Well, since >the time of the Conciliator to the narration of the books is like the >time of Jesus to the present (between 1000 and 2000 describes the >present) maybe he was being metaphoric when he said that he had always >thought of it as being like between those times, comparing it to what >we have experienced. Or he may have been confused at the time when >thinking about how he intended the metaphorical correlation. > >In the books, the time period is given as "thirty thousand years" by >Agia, and "many chiliads" by Severian. They could be wrong, but this >would be plenty of time for the mountains to be carved, and be in tune >with the action in the book and mantis' timeline. > >prion >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.3 --------------- > >From: Internet Megantic <support at megantic.net> >Subject: unsuscribe >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:53:47 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > >unsuscribe > > > > > >At 03:43 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote: >> >>-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n006 -------------- >> >> 001 - adam louis stephanides <a - Severian and the White Fountain >> 002 - adam louis stephanides <a - Il (Peter) Principe >> 003 - Internet Megantic <suppor - unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005 >> 004 - "Alex David Groce" <adgro - Eleanor Bold >> 005 - "J. Schultz" <jschultz@wc - Autarch >> 006 - m.driussi at genie.com - (urth) Questions Keep Questing >> 007 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) David as Maitre 2 >> 008 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney >> 009 - Peter Westlake <peter@har - Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth >> 010 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth >> >>URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.1 --------------- >> >>From: adam louis stephanides <astephan at students.uiuc.edu> >>Subject: Severian and the White Fountain >>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT) >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII >>In-Reply-To: <199807142021.NAA29492 at lists1.best.com> >> >> >> >>On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote: >> >>> Adam asked: >>> >Why is it necessary for anybody to "bring the White Fountain" to Urth?= Why >>> can't the Hierogrammates just send it?< >>>=20 >>> This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings= who >>> serve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their = area >>> and decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle. >> >>What I meant to ask was not "Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes >>White Fountains to everybody who need one?" but "Having decided to give >>Urth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth, >>assuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly? Why go through >>this routine of having Severian "become" the White Fountain as well, which >>he then "guides" to Urth, or at least believes he does. >>=20 >>> Also: > <And if someone has to bring it, why must it be an Autarch?> >>>=20 >>> Severian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right = the >>> representative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small >portion >>> of it.=20 >> >>True, but Severian's "trial" is not, as he origingally believes, to >>determine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to >>determine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun. So >>it's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio >>"representative of Urth." >> >>--Adam >> >> >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.2 --------------- >> >>From: adam louis stephanides <astephan at students.uiuc.edu> >>Subject: Il (Peter) Principe >>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:35:59 -0500 (CDT) >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII >>In-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362 at lists1.best.com> >> >> >>mantis, >> >>I was away for a few days, or I would have responded to your post earlier. >>I have a few minor cavils, which I'll discuss elsewhere, but I found it >>admirably clear and enlightening. >> >>Unfortunately, it only leaves me more baffled regarding _Urth_ as a whole. >>In fact, it now seems to me that _Urth_ is at least as obscure as >>_Castleview_. To start with, the Hierodules have been supporting the >>"rickety" political structure of the Commonwealth for a thousand years or >>more, apparently solely so that at the end of this time Severian, the >>man destined to bring the New Sun, will be Autarch. This is too >>reminiscent of _The Sirens of Titan_ for my taste. More to the point, it >>makes even more urgent the questions I asked in an earlier post: why must >>an Urthman bring the New Sun, why an Autarch, and why Severian? I'm not >>as confident that the answers I gave are correct as I was then, but I >>haven't seen any better answers. For that matter, I'm doubtful about the >>whole punishment-and-redemption-of-Urth schema: if the "redemption" >>involves wiping out 99.9% of Urth's population, one would think the >>"punishment" could be dispensed with as superfluous. >> >>I'm also baffled by the course of events surrounding Severian's "trial." >>Why is he led to think that his trial will be like his predecessor's? Is >>it just so he will be a more humane ruler as Autarch? But then why isn't >>he told the truth as soon as he leaves Urth? >> >>And what is the function of the battle royal between the sailors and the >>aquastors? Were the Hierogrammates really willing, after all those years >>of preparation, to risk the survival of their race on the outcome of that >>battle? =20 >> >>In short, your post made me realize that so far, the first half of _Urth_ >>doesn't make sense for me. Any help you, or anyone else of course, can >>give me would be most appreciated. (If this post seems querulous, it's a >>reflection of my desperation.) >> >>--Adam >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.3 --------------- >> >>From: Internet Megantic <support at megantic.net> >>Subject: unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005 >>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:32:19 -0400 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >> >>At 21:10 18-07-98 -0700, you wrote: >>> >>>-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n005 -------------- >>> >>> 001 - "William H. Ansley" <wans - Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Sp= ace >>> 002 - "Robert Borski" <rborski@ - Sanderson's Abandonment >>> 003 - "Alice Turner" <al@interp - Re: Digest urth.v017.n004 >>> 004 - Derek Bell <dbell at maths.t - Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Sp= ace >>> 005 - raster at highfiber.com (Cha - Re: Claudius >>> >>>URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works >>> >>> >>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.1 --------------- >>> >>>From: "William H. Ansley" <wansley at warwick.net> >>>Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space >>>Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 -0400 >>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >>>In-Reply-To: <199807180216.TAA14355 at lists1.best.com> >>> >>>>One of the more puzzling names in THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS to be sour= ced >>>>is the Country of Friends. It's cited by the abos as the possible homep= ort >>>>of the star-faring Homo sapiens pangalacticus, who've traveled to Saint >>>>Anne in the distant past, and mentioned in the same breath as Atlantis = and >>>>Gondwanaland. >>>> >>>>I'm now speculating it relates to the Aztecs. >>>> >>>>This is because Texas--where Gene Wolfe grew up--is derived from the In= dian >>>>word "texia," meaning "friends." And since Texas was once part of Mexic= o, >>>>it's possible the Country of Friends generally refers to Aztecan >>>>civilization. >>> >>>I like this too. >>> >>>I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs >>>elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find >>>the reference, I will certainly post. >>> >>>William Ansley >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.2 --------------- >>> >>>From: "Robert Borski" <rborski at coredcs.com> >>>Subject: Sanderson's Abandonment >>>Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:26:00 -0500 >>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 >>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> >>>Earlier, in regards to my Continuing Westward post, Sean Whalen (aka pri= on) >>>wrote: >>> >>>"This seems to fit, but how does it fit in that he originally thought >>>that she stabbed Sanderson? He didn't just decide to leave him, he >>>thought that he was dead." >>> >>>This may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom >>>Rickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS >>>THREE and the other collections. Or it may be simple irony. Paris, the >>>Great Seducer, undone by his own lust (whereas the Paris of legend stake= s a >>>claim to the most beautiful woman in the world and precipitates a war). >>> >>>Of course, all of the Homeric correspondences are rather loosely clumped >>>together--hence the notion of Greek Odysseus and Trojan Paris as >>>shipmates--so the search for parallels my be intriniscally flawed to beg= in >>>with, at least if we expect 100% fidelity with the Illiad/Odyssey. >>> >>>Also, what I forgot to mention in my Cherry Jubilee piece is that KGB ag= ent >>>Vera Oussenko, who, as you mention, is arrested, represents truth, which >>>she is seeking, even though she gets it wrong (Vera =3D veritas), only i= n the >>>inverted value system of CJ she's "punished"--not being allowed to >>>disembark, she's spared the hell of Mars. >>> >>>Robert Borski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.3 --------------- >>> >>>From: "Alice Turner" <al at interport.net> >>>Subject: Re: Digest urth.v017.n004 >>>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:16:27 -0400 >>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>>Content-Type: text/plain; >>> charset=3D"iso-8859-1" >>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> >>> >>>>Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if Owen/Ouen is >>>>considered to be the Welsh/Celtic equivalent of Eugene, doesn't that me= an >>>>Sev's father might also be called Gene? >>> >>> >>>From the Oxford book of English Christian names: >>> >>>OWEN: a common Welsh name; in Middle English romances often spelled Owai= n, >>>Owayne, Ywain. It has been supposed to be derived from Latin Eugenius...= see >>>Ewan. (Ouen) >>> >>>EWEN: this name, now confined to Scotland, was once common in England...= It >>>is probably the same as Irish and Gaelic Eoghan 'a youth,' which is freq= uent >>>in Celtic legend and history. Eoghan is usually derived from Primitive >>>Celtic Eugenius 'well-born,' from which is derived Old Welsh Euguein wh= ich >>>later became Middle Welsh Ewein, Ywein, whence modern Welsh Owain, Owen. >>> >>>Bravo, scolex. Thank you. >>> >>>-alga- >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.4 --------------- >>> >>>From: Derek Bell <dbell at maths.tcd.ie> >>>Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space >>>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:22:08 +0100 >>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >>>In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 EDT." >>> <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com> >>> >>>In message <199807180352.UAA19972 at lists1.best.com>, "William H. Ansley" >writes: >>>>I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs >>>>elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I fi= nd >>>>the reference, I will certainly post. >>> >>> I think it's in the short story _Feather Tigers_, IIRC. It >>>occurs in the dialog between the main protagonist and the sky(space?) >>>yacht. >>> >>> Derek >>> >>> >>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.5 --------------- >>> >>>From: raster at highfiber.com (Charles Dye) >>>Subject: Re: Claudius >>>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:57 -0600 (MDT) >>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >>> >>>CRCulver at aol.com writes: >>> >>>>Alex: >>>>< Has there been any discussion on the list (sorry, I'm new and haven't= had >>>>time to exhaustively browse the archives) of similarities between >Severian and >>>>Claudius, both the historical emperor and the charming narrator of the = two >>>>Robert Graves novels?> >>> >>>>The point that comes to mind first is that both Claudius and Severian plan to >>>>write a manuscript they believe no one will read and get rid of it in a= lead >>>>coffer. >>> >>>The dead giveaway, for me anyhow, was the scene where Severian produces = one >>>of 'his' aes in the era of Typhon: >>> >>> He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. "Gold all right. >>> Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. >>> Don't suppose you noticed." >>> >>> "No," I said. "I never thought of it." >>> >>> Hadelin nodded and pushed back his chair. "A man doesn't shave hims= elf >>> sidewise. See you in the morning, sieur, madame." >>> >>>Compare with a scene from "Claudius the God" chapter 6 : >>> >>> It pleased my vanity to have my head on the coins.... Portraits on >>> coins, however, are always disappointing because they are executed in >>> profile, and it comes as a shock, when one sees it in a portrait, th= at >>> one really looks like that to people standing beside one. For one's >>> full face, because of the familiarity that mirrors give it, a certain >>> toleration and even affection is felt; but I must say that when I fi= rst >>> saw the model that the mint-masters were striking for me I grew angry >>> and asked whether it was intended to be a caricature. >>> >>>Robert Graves once did a translation of "The Lives of the Twelve Caesars" >>>in which each Emperor's chapter was illustrated with the appropriate aur= eus. >>> >>>raster at highfiber.com >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------- END urth.v017.n005 --------------- >>> >>> >>>*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ >>> >>> >>/Serges >>Internet Megantic >>http://www.megantic.net/ >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.4 --------------- >> >>From: "Alex David Groce" <adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu> >>Subject: Eleanor Bold >>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:57:36 -0400 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii >> >> I've often wondered if the name "Eleanor Bold" in PEACE is simply a >>coincidence, or is intended to mean something. I've seen Wolfe refer to >>Trollope before, particularly in an essay or interview when he was discus= sing >>the value to a writer of having a job other than writing (I think this is= in >>CASTLE OF DAYS). So, it seems reasonable to assume Wolfe's read BARCHEST= ER >>TOWERS, and possibly all of the Barchester books, and it is an intentional >>effect. But what exactly is it supposed to suggest? Any ideas? >> >>--=20 >>"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8= :32 >>-- >>Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu) >>Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fictio= n) >>'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President >>608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366 >>http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.5 --------------- >> >>From: "J. Schultz" <jschultz at wcnet.org> >>Subject: Autarch >>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:42:38 -0400 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset=3D"iso-8859-1" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >>It takes me a while to get around to reading all my mail. This is in >>response to the difference between Autarch and Monarch. As we have all >>figured by now Autarch means one who rules themselves. This idea works i= nto >>one of the themes I see present in the first set of books (tBotNS). At e= ach >>step in Severian's development we see him cast off the power of one >>authority after another. He breaks his ties from the authority of the >>guild, the Archon and his post as Lictor, Typhon, etc. It all leads up to >>the point where just before the Lake people attack the castle of Baldande= rs, >>when Severian says (to paraphrase) I began to follow the Increate's >>authority above all others. Severian has become his own man, as it were. >>He decides for himself what is right and wrong, moral and evil, with a >>personal relationship with God. Thus I feel that the title "Autarch" is >>symbolic of this change and that the title has more thematic meaning, rat= her >>than any real practical meaning in the way of legal proceedure. A rose i= s a >>rose is a rose. Or, it doesn't really matter what you call him, the idea= is >>that he is the top dog and no one is higher, the one man who rules himsel= f. >>As we find out, however, the Autarch is the subject of the Hierodules and >>other higher powers (at least in some sense of the word). We can't forget >>that the message of tBotNS is basically spiritual and religious, whether = we >>like it or not. In my mind it is the redemption of a torturer who is lost >>in an immoral and decaying world. >> >>As far as what would have happened had Appian let Severian enter Yesod, he >>most likely would have failed having not learned the important lessons th= at >>were to come. However, He would have EATEN Appian's brains AT THAT TIME. >>Appian even says, "Gee, sorry I'm so shocked but I thought I had more tim= e." >>Which leads me to believe that Appian knows that Sev will take the throne >>and he knows that to take the throne he (Appian) has to be dead. I would >>balk too if my replacement walked in the door and said, "Well, I'm ready, >>take me to the garden and get your brains ready." While Sev doesn't say >>this it is percieved this way by Appian. >> >>Let me say that the story has already faded in my mind and mingled with h= alf >>ideas, my own experiences, and the way I would like it to be. (as I'm su= re >>happens to us all) >> >>One timeless question (FunkMonkey steps in line behind hundreds of >>philosophers, ancient to modern) How much free will does Severian have? >>When does Tra. KNOW Severain has passed. Have they engineered him from t= he >>begining and so no test is needed? He has some power from the White >>Fountain long before heading into space, as Sev himself says, 'as if the >>presentment of his future came back through time to him.' Assuming he >>raised Triskle from the dead he has had his 'powers' from the begining. >>Everyone on Urth in Sev's time knows of the Concilliator. The Concilliat= or >>is Sev returning triumphant. Thus Severian has already suceeded before he >>begun! Or has he? Time travel always throws me through a logic loop. L= ike >>asking the question "If I went back in time and killed my past self, who >>would grow up to kill me?" Any thoughts? This could be and endless >>discussion. >> >>FunkMonkey >> with the logical MonkeyWrench >> >>J. Schutlz >>jschultz at wcnet.org >> >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.6 --------------- >> >>From: m.driussi at genie.com >>Subject: (urth) Questions Keep Questing >>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 04:11:00 GMT >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >>Adam, >> >>FWIW I didn't take your post in a querulous mode. And I'm glad that >>something I wrote seemed clear and enlightening, but of course I was >>only shooting in the dark and I can't hope to hit a homer every time, >>even if it is a room full of ancient Greek poets who are blind, just >>to mix metaphors (and this one is for raster--don't think I didn't >>laugh on that homer quip). >> >>I'm comfortable with the paradoxes I hold in suspension on this one. >>If I can continue to explain what I see, maybe you can see it even if >>you don't particularly believe it. >> >>The Peter Principle is about the triumph of mediocrity, I think. >> >>Il Principe is Machiavelli's work about amoral statecraft. >> >>Peter Wright's papers on the "Fictions of the New Sun" provide a >>Machiavellian reading (which, in turn, makes Severian's narrative >>much closer to Herbert's DUNE series than Tolkien's LOTR). >> >>"Sirens of Titan" is another good touchstone and I'm glad you brought >>it up. This is the "sarcastic" or "cosmic joke" answer to the Big >>Question, and I think we can all agree that it isn't an >>overwhelmingly fitting solution to the Briah/Yesod situation. >> >>Some of your questions can be answered: The situation facing Severian >>rides a tightrope between free-will and pre-destination. >> >>This by itself is a huge topic. Philosophy, physics, metaphysics, >>etc. >> >>In practical terms, we rejoice that Severian took the brown book, >>rather than Canog's Book of the New Sun, because this "opens the >>loop" and makes the oracular power of the tales work their magic on >>Severian, which then helps him behave in a certain way, which is then >>faithfully recorded as Canog's Book of the New Sun. If Severian had >>taken Canog's, it would have been a closed loop "blueprint"; Severian >>would have been reduced to being a robot--and maybe would have >>resisted doing it, and the whole thing would collapse. >> >>Likewise, nobody with any authority and/or knowledge could ever "tell >>Severian the truth" or "what to do" or anything like that. For the >>same reason. They tell him just enough and just in time. He has to >>be guided to the right decision, but he cannot be simply told, nor >>forced to do something. >> >>Maybe we could liken it to developing a photograph: it is done in the >>dark, by mysterious rituals and formula, but there is a goal in mind >>and it begins to materialize until finally it is done and we can turn >>on the light and see it clearly. >> >>As for why does Yesod care. Well, one model is that Briah and Yesod >>are two halves of the same creature--one is male and one is female, >>to use the crudest analogy. They must have an exchange of >>information to ensure their own future survival: Urth gets a New Sun, >>and Yesod gets the next stage closer to Hieros . . . who will then >>make hierogrammates. It all is a reproductive rite; as if homo >>sapiens were to guide australopithecus toward becoming homo erectus, >>so that homo erectus would give way to homo sapiens. >> >>Which brings us to another dicotomy: the breaking of the human >>experience into Pure Order and the wild things. Cyriaca's tale of >>posthistory tells us that the First Empire was founded upon the one >>(Order) and brought down by the rejected other (non-order). The >>implication being (I think) that there should be a balance, within >>the individual and within the culture. >> >>Not to be "zen" about it, nor too smug, but questions about the very >>mysterious first half of URTH should not be focused entirely in the >>"logical" or "rational" mode. If Order leads to brick walls of >>confusion, see if Non-order can lead to a doorway. If "modern >>science" can't answer, try "cave painting poetry" instead. >> >>If you haven't already, you really should read Wright's essays. You >>might find that they fit you like a tee. >> >>=3Dmantis=3D >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.7 --------------- >> >>From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com> >>Subject: (urth) David as Maitre 2 >>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:39:50 -0700 (PDT) >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii >> >>This is Sean Whalen (prion). >> >>I think that in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ the junior officer who >>reviews VRT's case is actually David. First, David is known to have >>gone to the capital after his father's death, presumably to follow his >>love of political power. Plenty of time has passed since the murder >>and VRT's arrest for him to have attained such a position and to have >>held it for a fairly significant amount of time. Also, he is called a >>junior officer and the other officer he meets is called a brother >>officer. This is an allusion to the fact that David is younger than >>his "brother" No. 5. The other person the j.o. is mentioned in this >>story to be younger than is his slave, who is probably one of the >>clones or altered clones of Maitre. This seems to be plenty, in a >>Wolfe book, to link him to David. More, he is only addressed as >>Maitre, just like his father was, continuing the chain of linkage.=20 >>The other officer also says that he always was a night owl, which is >>similar to the way that David and No. 5 stayed up when they were young >>in FHC. Also, when he hits the slave, it is like a reversal of when >>No. 5 accidently stabbed him when he was fighting the other clone of >>Maitre with four arms. >> >>prion >>_________________________________________________________ >>DO YOU YAHOO!? >>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.8 --------------- >> >>From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com> >>Subject: (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney >>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:05:28 -0700 (PDT) >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii >> >>This is Sean Whalen (prion). >> >>I just wanted to put down a few minor miscellaneous points I have in >>my mind about _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_. >> >>Today I saw a show about Neanderthals. It seems that their >>flintworkers could make a blade that is the sharpest known to man, as >>could the later humans. The discusser said that it is even sharper >>than a modern surgeon's scalpel. Marsch talks about how flint can be >>chipped with little dexterity when he talks to RT speculating about >>how he could make the implements he sells as Annese with his arthritic >>hands. VRT probably used flint to cut out the first pages of Marsch's >>diary, which are said in the story to have been cut out with an >>instrument sharper than a scalpel. >> >>VRT may have bought the brass circumciser to use on himself, so that >>he would not be discovered to be impersonating Marsch if his books >>were found. Did he ever get to use it? I don't know if anyone in >>authority ever saw him naked, and he asked not to be strip-searched by >>the men who arrest him. >> >>Isn't it possible that VRT didn't kill Marsch, but that he was killed >>by the tire-tiger? In the journal, written by VRT, it says that >>Marsch was attacked by the waiting tiger when he came down from the >>tree, and that he should have been mauled but was absurdly lucky, and >>was only knocked back into a thorn bush. It seems to me that the >>tiger actually killed Marsch, and that VRT wrote that Marsch survived >>so that he could take his place. Otherwise, there's no reason to >>include this passage at all, as it seems ridiculous that Marsch could >>actually save himself if the tiger attacked as he came down the tree. >> >>Again, I wonder if VRT actually killed the cat-girl or just wrote that >>so that he wouldn't have to write about her interactions with Marsch, >>which would have been very different from the interactions he had with >>her, and too difficult for him to make up. When he begins to write in >>the journal, he also talks about "we" a lot, apparently about him and >>the mules, but perhaps not. >> >>I don't think that I believe Robert Borski's idea that RT is actually >>an abo himself. It seems odd that his wife and son have green eyes >>when he doesn't. VRT thinks he's a human, he says that what happens >>to his hands will keep him from his profession, implying that he had >>tool-using hands before. He can operate the buttons that his wife >>can't. >> >>Also, I believe that there was some discussion about what VRT and >>Maitre believe about Jeannine's genetic relations when VRT says that >>she is the daughter of "shall we say an earlier 'version'" of No. 5.=20 >>It seems possible that he meant a version as the parent of the Gene >>Wolfe genome, rather than an earlier person in the line of clones.=20 >>However, in jail VRT says that Jeannine is genetically Gene's >>daughter. At that time, remember, VRT didn't know that No. 5 knew he >>was a clone, and was thus just being subtle. >> >>prion >>_________________________________________________________ >>DO YOU YAHOO!? >>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.9 --------------- >> >>From: Peter Westlake <peter at harlequin.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth >>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:23:52 +0100 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >>References: <199807022151.OAA05425 at lists1.best.com> >>In-Reply-To: <199807051857.LAA20487 at lists1.best.com> >> >>At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: >>> >>>prion wrote: >>> >>>> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) >>>> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America geographically >>>> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is described as >>>> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer is >>>> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it >>>> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't >>>> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the >>>> first place. >>> >>>I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the >>>south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was >>>asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But >>>reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant >>>phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- >>>most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a >>>whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. >> >>Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find >>the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and >>was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the >>South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West Indies. >>Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: >> >>>And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her axis, wo= uld >>>that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear to be = the >>>same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the tropical >>>regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are somewhat >>>arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the world with >>>the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe upside-down. >> >>(I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) >> >>It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, >>while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be >>under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. >>I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we >>would expect them to flow East. >> >>In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and >>the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think >>(doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this >>really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. >>Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left >>or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the >>Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, >>given his total inability to follow directions. >> >>SBear. >> >> >> >>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.10 --------------- >> >>From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth >>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii >> >>This is Sean Whalen (prion). >> >>---Peter Westlake wrote: >>> >>> At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote: >>> > >>> >prion wrote: >>> > >>> >> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when) >>> >> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America >>geographically >>> >> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is >>described as >>> >> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south. The answer >>is >>> >> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it >>> >> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't >>> >> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the >>> >> first place. >>> > >>> >I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the >>> >south of SA. My question was based on my belief that Severian was >>> >asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands. But >>> >reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant >>> >phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern- >>> >most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a >>> >whole, as I had originally thought. So there's no problem there. >>>=20 >>> Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find >>> the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and >>> was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the >>> South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West >>Indies. >> >>Wheww. How's that for a bundle of citations? >> >>I don't remember Wolfe ever saying this, and it doesn't appear >>possible (see below). >> >>> Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote: >>>=20 >>> >And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her >>axis, would >>> >that matter? To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear >>to be the >>> >same? He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the >>tropical >>> >regions. After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are >>somewhat >>> >arbitrary constructs, aren't they? Why couldn't we depict the >>world with >>> >the South Pole on "top"? Maybe we've got the whole universe >>upside-down. >> >>Vodalus was talking about the magnetic axis flipping, which has >>happened often before on Earth. >> >>North and south may seem arbitrary, but east and west definitely >>aren't. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Assuming a >>human has a head in one direction and feet in the other, it is >>possible to determine which side is left and which right, and they are >>different. But anyway, with a person's left to the west and right to >>the east, he would be facing north, as happens to Severian (see below). >> >>> (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-) >>>=20 >>> It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays, >>> while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be >>> under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too. >>> I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we >>> would expect them to flow East. >>>=20 >>> In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and >>> the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think >>> (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this >>> really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal. >>> Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left >>> or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the >>> Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right, >>> given his total inability to follow directions. >>>=20 >>> SBear. >> >>As I understand it, the entire geography is like this: the sea level >>is lower because the colder temperature has frozen more water into the >>ice caps. There is thus more land. South America is in the general >>area it is now, with a similar distribution of continents. Nessus is >>on the west coast, west of the "Andes" and perhaps on land that is >>currently underwater. The Gyoll flows from it's source in the Andes >>west to it's mouth on the west coast. East of the Andes is the Amazon >>jungle. North in North America is the country of the Ascians. West >>are the Xanthic lands (Asia). >> >>To explain: in the book it says that to the south are the narrow >>lands and the southern archipelago. This could refer to either what >>is currently north or south, however, it also says that to the north >>is the waist of the world and north of that the Ascians. There is no >>isthmus to what we call the south. Therefore, the directions are the >>same as we use today. The Ascians live in North America, the waist is >>the Isthmus of Panama and environs. The narrow lands are the narrow >>southern part of South America. Also, the islands may not be the ones >>there today, but lower ones revealed by the receded ocean. Severian >>also says that the north is hotter, in some sections of the books. >> >>The rivers flow west because he's west of the Andes. There's also >>more land in that area because of the sea level. >> >>I've already discussed how Severian's northward journey helps confirm >>this. >> >>prion >>_________________________________________________________ >>DO YOU YAHOO!? >>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >>--------------- END urth.v017.n006 --------------- >> >> >>*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ >> >> >/Serges >Internet Megantic >http://www.megantic.net/ > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.4 --------------- > >From: Dan Parmenter <dan at lec.com> >Subject: The Phantom Rickshaw >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) >In-Reply-To: <199807201043.DAA21472 at lists1.best.com> > (urth-errors at lists.best.com) > >From: "Robert Borski" <rborski at coredcs.com> > >re: CONTINUING WESTWARD > >>This may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom >>Rickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS >>THREE and the other collections. > >Oddly enough I read both stories within a few weeks of one another, >but I think that it's probably some other story besides TPR that >you think might be resonating in your memory. > >D > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.5 --------------- > >From: adam louis stephanides <astephan at students.uiuc.edu> >Subject: A few minor cavils >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:26:07 -0500 (CDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII >In-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362 at lists1.best.com> > > > >On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 mantis wrote: > >> Actually I believe raster's primary concern re: authentic autarchs is >> the same as my own--the brain eating bit. > >[snip] >=20 >> And thus, it doesn't matter what Valeria calls herself, she isn't a >> real autarch. The higher ups of Yesod would know it if they cared to >> look, and issues of sovereignity aside (though I agree with you on >> all or nearly all the points you've made--my intended point was that >> "Conan the Nomarch of Urth" and other pseudo-autarchs aren't going to >> be allowed to take the Test: the only recognized representative of >> Urth is the real autarch), that the common people know Valeria isn't >> a real autarch is extremely damaging to the domestic situation. > >I didn't see anything either in the scene in Valeria's throne room, or in >Severian's later talks with Odilo and Eata, to indicate that there is >any domestic instability over Valeria's inability to take the test. All >Eata says is that there is "talk," and this talk stems from her being a >woman and not knowing the words of power, not over her inability to take >the test (let alone her not having eaten her predecessor's brain, which >I doubt the populace knows anything about; at any rate, Severian didn't). > >In any case, if nobody took the test between Ymar and Appian, then the >role of the test in legitimating the Autarchy can't have been that >important. >=20 >> I'll also agree that the autarchs inbetween were told that they >> would fail if they tried--this may be straight from the text (in any >> event, I know I've talked with people about it). > >That's actually not what I had in mind, and the one passage I recall which >bears on this question seems to tell against this: Severian tells >Palaemon that his predecessors had often refused to take the test because >they thought the enemy would gain an advantage from the New Sun >(IV, ch. 34). My idea had been that the other Autarchs' Hierodule >advisers had given the Autarchs ostensibly neutral advice which >nevertheless highlighted this, and perhaps other, alleged disadvantages of >taking the test. > >> The Byzantine model fails at this level, since Byzantine emperors had >> to be cunning, ruthless, etc., clawing their way to the top. Whereas >> we know that the autarchs often enough just stumbled into it--the >> Peter Principle crafts a "Claudiarchy" of common men and women, >> including second-rate scholars, farmwives, wantons, sailors, and >> artisans (V, ch. 34). > >I'm sure you're right about the general mediocrity of the "found" Autarchs >(though they need not be any more mediocre than those who succeeded >through primogeniture, or than hereditary monarchs anywhere else, for that >matter). But my impression is that this quote (which is in IV, not V) >refers not just to the earlier Autarchs, but to all the personalities >Severian now contains, only some of which are Autarchs. If they are all >Autarchs, then since Severian says "'Most are only common men and women, >sailors and artisans, farmwives and wantons,'" that would seem to imply >that the Autarchs who succeed via heredity are in the minority. > >--Adam > > > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.6 --------------- > >From: m.driussi at genie.com >Subject: (urth) Autarchs are commoners >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 23:11:00 GMT >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Adam, > >Perhaps you want to argue that hereditary autarchy imparts "nobility" >in the first generation. But the aristocracy of Urth is the exultant >class, and exultants are forbidden to be autarchs--this is a clear >rule I don't think anybody has tried to deny. So in the simple >binary system of nobles vs. commoners, autarchs by definition must be >"commoners"--a range from armigers to optimates to commonality to >servants of the throne. > >Yes, the quote in IV does suggest that "most" (which is what, a range >from 55% to 75%, or whatever percentage level where "most" gives way >to "nearly all") of the minds at Severian's disposal (which does not >reach all the way back to Ymar with any clarity of personality) are >not certainly hereditary autarchs. (There is a part somewhere in >there where Severian recalls the fatal mistakes of many autarchs >before him: one last visit to a lover, one last charge on the >battlefield, etc. For those who care, these fragments could perhaps >be gathered up and laid out to add to the "depth of Autarchial Mind" >beyond and before Appian.) Hereditary autarchy is mentioned very >briefly and not really sketched out beyond that--we really have >no clue as to how successfully the potential was realized, at the >individual level or on average. We only know that the potential was >there and it was realized to some degree. > >Then again, your assertion that of "all the personalities Severian >now contains, only some of them are Autarchs" is quite astounding and >I look forward to your fleshing this out! Thecla as the rule rather >than the exception?! > >Re: commoners talk about Valeria. Right, they talk because she is a >woman (and this is something of a red herring, since we =3Dknow=3D from >the quote in IV that there are female autarchs--the point being that >there hasn't been one in living memory, but emphatically =3Dnot=3D that >women are forbidden) and she doesn't know the words of power (=3Dthis=3D >is the point I keep trying to make: they know next to nothing about >brain-eating, Yesod and all that, yet they know that she doesn't know >the words of power which autarchs should know, and this is cause for >them to talk--presumably to wonder what on Urth is going on, is she a >sham or just more mentally incompetant than most?). > >Depending upon how much strength one wants to invest in the >"opium of the masses: the population believes that the Autarch will >somehow bring the New Sun" deal, this question of Valeria's validity >ranges from 0 "Whitewater ho-hum" to 10 "Watergate apocalypse!" That >is, as usual, it depends upon the given application. > >=3Dmantis=3D > > >--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.7 --------------- > >From: mary whalen <marewhalen at yahoo.com> >Subject: (urth) Autarchial dynasties >Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:24:45 -0700 (PDT) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > >This is Sean Whalen (prion). > >I can think of a number of ways that a genealogical line of Autarchs >could fail. > >The Autarch's children may not be near enough to eat his brain before >someone else has to. Whoever is near him when he dies may just eat >his brain to become Autarch immediately. There would even be plots to >kill the Autarch and quickly eat his brains. > >The children may not want to eat their parents' brains, or be unable >if they're very small. The Autarch may not have had a chance to have >any children. A plot could exist to put contraceptive agents into the >food supply to keep this from happening by the Exultants, who would >have many plots similar to this also. > >It's also possible to go insane from the process of becoming Autarch.=20 >Gaining all those memories is very traumatic and could cause even one >in two to go insane. The children may not be very lucky, especially as >they will see their lives as part of their parents' perspective.=20 >Smaller children would probably be even more susceptible. They would >have fewer memories of their own and be able to lose their identity >easier. These would never become "self-rulers." > >Plots could also exist to kill all the children and the Autarch at the >same time, then feed his brains to someone else, or similar things, >created by the Exultants or anyone else. Things like this could also >happen by accident. > >With all these problems, it's entirely possible that most of the >Autarchs Severian remembers were originally commoners. Few dynasties >are very likely, with all the hatred the Exultants feel toward Autarchs. > >prion >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >--------------- END urth.v017.n007 --------------- > > >*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ > > /Serges Internet Megantic http://www.megantic.net/ *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/
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