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Severian I, Severian II, Severian III, Severian Ad Nauseum
Lane Haygood · 03 Dec 2008, 22:29
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From: lhaygood at gmail.com (Lane Haygood) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:29:49 -0600 Subject: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III, Severian Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: <4764.67.142.130.11.1228343330.squirrel at brunians.org> References: <W308581046832851228331045@webmail3> <93d4039f0812031112u55f46223iee671bd8f8475923 at mail.gmail.com> <272706220812031149q5be14195x59b8143bba2bbfc at mail.gmail.com> <93d4039f0812031154h393776ccs4d64dcde38bb373c at mail.gmail.com> <4764.67.142.130.11.1228343330.squirrel at brunians.org> Message-ID: <272706220812031429w6866e8e2j70002a4ec42634a1 at mail.gmail.com> Quit stealing my jokes. Lane On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:28 PM, <brunians at brunians.org> wrote: > > Yes, my basic rundown was meant as that. > > > Heck, I even conflated Aristotle with Aquinas very badly at the end. > > So did Aquinas, though not necessrily more at the end than the beginning > or middle.... > > > > . > > > On 12/3/08, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'll explicate and clarify this later. What we're really talking about > >> with > >> Aristotle requires us to contrast universality of a given idea with > >> Plato's > >> ideas about universality. I'm just at work and can't write it out at > >> the > >> moment. > >> > >> Lane > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > Yes, "form" and "anima" mean the same thing here (although not always, > >> > because "anima" will sometimes mean "breath" or "soul" when "form" > >> > will not.) > >> > > >> > Basic Aristotelian metaphysics: entity = form + matter. > >> > > >> > This is easiest to understand via artifacts. A blacksmith imagines > >> > the form of a sword, then takes matter, steel, and forges it into the > >> > sword. The "form," existing in the mind of the blacksmith, becomes > >> > instantiated in the matter of the steel. But the substance, the thing > >> > itself, is neither the steel nor the picture in the head of the > >> > blacksmith, but their union in the sword. > >> > > >> > For a living thing, the form is the anima, the life-principle--for > >> > humans, you might call it the mind or the soul. The matter is the > >> > body. Severian and Apu-Punchau are the same "form" instantiated, or > >> > "written," in different matters. Nevertheless they are distinct > >> > entities. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 12/3/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > >-----Original Message----- > >> > > >From: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com] > >> > > >Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 10:42 AM > >> > > >To: 'The Urth Mailing List' > >> > > >Subject: Re: (urth) Severian I, Severian II, Severian III, > >> Severian > >> Ad Nauseum > >> > > > > >> > > >On 12/3/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote: > >> > > >> from the perspective of the 4 books proper, there is only really > >> one > >> Severian body, though that is confused by the tomb. This is why there > >> is > >> the explosion when he meets Apu Punchau. The Two bodies can't be in the > >> same time because they are one, ala Inire's law of mirrors (so to > >> speak). > >> > > >> > >> > > >> Book V, as a Sequel, convolutes the hell out of that simplicity. > >> By > >> most readings, we now have to modify Apu Punchau to be this Aquastor > >> Tzadkiel made. Now, if Tzadkiel made him a new body and discarded the > >> old > >> (which I've argued is not necessarily in the text) he does not really > >> run > >> the risk of self cancellation when he meets Apu Punchau in the stone > >> town. > >> Right? If it's a new body, it's NOT subject to that time paradox, I > >> don't > >> think. They're not two instances of the same body, unless I'm right > >> that > >> Tzadkiel just fixed his body and resurrected him into the same one. > >> > > >> (that argument here: > >> http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2008-December/010873.html > ) > >> > > >> So, the self cancellation scene becomes dodgy in light of the > >> sequel, > >> unless we realize that what Tzadkiel did is NOT necessarily a new body > >> separate from the Author of BoTNS. > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> > > >I don't think the bodies are the problem with Apu Punchau. It's > >> the > >> forms. > >> > > > > >> > > >The Hieros explain that at the end of Urth, I think, with the bit > >> > > >about writing the same lines too close together. > >> > > > > >> > > >There's a lot of this Aristotelian/Scholastic philosophy dusted > >> about > >> > > >in the Sun books--think also of Severian's definition of > >> > > >larvae--"masked spirits." Hardly what a modern who's taken a > >> semester > >> > > >of biology thinks, but absolutely accurate in Aristotelian > >> > > >metaphysics. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The form is what the Heirodules call the Anima, no? > >> > > the example is of a verse. The Verse would be the Anima, the > >> multiple > >> writings in the dust would be the instances that cancel each other out. > >> The > >> way they explain it is different than the Law of Mirrors cancellation, I > >> think. > >> > > > >> > > Here's the relevant passage, which does account for why his Aquastor > >> would leave a corpse where Malrubius's wouldn't. > >> > > > >> > > man this shit is really confusing. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > "One further question, illustrious Hierodules, before you return me > >> to > >> my own period. When I spoke with Master Malrubius beside the sea, he > >> dissolved into a glittering dust. And yet " I could not say it, but my > >> eyes > >> sought out the corpse. > >> > > Barbatus nodded. "That eidolon, as you call them, had been in > >> existence > >> only briefly. I don't know what energies Tzadkiel called upon to support > >> you > >> on the ship; it may even be that you yourself drew the support you > >> needed > >> from whatever source was at hand, just as you took power from the ship > >> when > >> you tried to raise your steward. But even if it was a source you left > >> behind > >> when you came here, you had lived a long time before that, on the ship, > >> in > >> Yesod, on the ship again, in the tender, in Typhon's time, and so on. > >> During > >> all that time you breathed, ate, and drank matter that was not unstable, > >> converting it to your body's use. Thus it became a substantial body." > >> > > "But I'm dead not even here, dead back there on Tzadkiel's ship." > >> > > "Your twin lies dead there," Barbatus told me. "As another lies dead > >> here. I might say in passing that if he weren't dead, we couldn't have > >> done > >> what we did, because every living being is more than mere matter." He > >> paused > >> and glanced toward Fainulimus for help, but received none. "What do you > >> know > >> of the anima?" > >> > > I thought then of Ava, and what she had said to me: "You're a > >> materialist, like all ignorant people. But your materialism doesn't make > >> materialism true." Little Ava had died with Foila and the rest. > >> "Nothing," I > >> muttered. "I know nothing of the anima." > >> > > "In a way, it's like a line of verse. Famulimus, what was the one > >> you > >> quoted to me?" > >> > > His wife sang, "Awake! for Morning in the Bowl of Night, Has flung > >> the > >> Stone that puts the Stars to Flight." > >> > > "Yes," I said. "I understand." > >> > > Barbatus pointed. "Suppose I were to write those lines upon that > >> wall > >> and then to write them again upon that other wall. Which would be the > >> true > >> lines?" > >> > > "Both," I said. "And neither. The true lines are not writing, nor > >> speech > >> either. I can't say what they are." > >> > > "That is the way of the anima, as I understand it. It was written > >> there." He indicated the dead man. "Now it is written in you. When the > >> light > >> of the White Fountain touches Urth, it will be written there again. Yet > >> the > >> anima will not be erased in you by that writing. Unless " > >> > > I waited for him to continue. > >> > > Ossipago said, "Unless you come too close. If you write a name in > >> the > >> dust and retrace it with your finger, there are not two names, but one. > >> If > >> two currents flow through a conductor, there is one current." > >> > > While I stared in disbelief, Famulimus sang, "You came too near your > >> double once, you know; that was here, in this poor town of stones. Then > >> he > >> was gone, and only you remained. Our eidolons are always of the dead. > >> Have > >> you not wondered why? Be warned!" > >> > > Barbatus nodded. "But as for our returning you to your own time, we > >> can't help you. Your green man knew more than we, perhaps; or at least > >> he > >> had more energy at his disposal. We'll leave you food, water, and a > >> light; > >> but you'll have to wait for the White Fountain. It shouldn't be long, as > >> Famulimus said." > >> > > She had begun to fade into the past already, so that her song seemed > >> to > >> come from far away. "Do not destroy the corpse, Severian. However > >> tempted > >> you may be be warned!" > >> > > Barbatus and Ossipago had faded while I watched Famulimus. When her > >> voice was gone, there was no sound in the House of Apu-Punchau but his > >> own > >> faint breath. " > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > Urth Mailing List > >> > > To post, write urth at urth.net > >> > > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Urth Mailing List > >> > To post, write urth at urth.net > >> > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > >> > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Urth Mailing List > >> To post, write urth at urth.net > >> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Urth Mailing List > > To post, write urth at urth.net > > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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