Abaia and the undines

Jordon Flato · 06 Dec 2008, 00:05 · from 2008-December.txt.gz

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From: jordonflato at gmail.com (Jordon Flato)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:05:16 -0800
Subject: (urth) Abaia and the undines
In-Reply-To: <4939B55F.8020801 at verizon.net>
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	<4939B55F.8020801 at verizon.net>
Message-ID: <273409710812051605k457c5dacvae535f4be1b2a527 at mail.gmail.com>

Hmmmm.

As to why they would want to stop Severian, I can only think that one of the
stated reasons that these massive giants don't just wipe out everyone
themselves is that they are more interested in enslaving humanity, not
destroying it.  Hence, a flood that destroys Humanity pretty much leaves
them where they already were...i.e. with a bunch of fun Undines to play
with, but not much else.  So, I would think they want to capture decaying
humanity for their own purposes.  The fact that decaying humanity is wiped
from the Urth means they having nothing left to do, I suppose.  All the best
toys would be gone!

And I'm not going to weigh in on the Christ thing again....of fuck it, why
not!  If it is not meant to have any resonance with the idea of there being
some sort of Increate involved here, then Wolfe need never have done things
like turn water into wine.  The Hiero's didn't do that.  It doesn't really
make a ton of sense for the 'claw' to do it, but it certainly has some
special resonance vis a vis a certain past messiah, right?  There are lots
of examples like that, which aren't things 'created' by the Undines or the
Hierdules, but are things that happen to Sev on his journey.  Are these all
red herrings by Wolfe to throw us off the course?  Could be.  That would be
a poor interpretation in my book, but then again, it's our book, not my
book, isn't it!

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:12 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

> I don't recall reading anything about the origin of Abaia and the undines.
> Does anyone "know" or care to guess? IIRC, Baldanders seems to think they
> evolved for a watery future, which may be true.
>
> A related question is why they are necessarily or assumed to be evil. I've
> been moving away from a perverted-Christ interpretation (though that aspect
> can never be dismissed) since that discussion began (for example, I see no
> reason to assume that the Hierogrammates/Hierodules really work for the
> Increate at all, or do his bidding, or that the Increate caused the Flood
> any more than God causes the deaths of puppies).
>
> The only straw I have to clutch at is that they are basically water
> elementals. In the Seven Worlds cosmology, things are just the way they are,
> as in folklore. So, for example, don't trust the wood fairies, but run from
> the water fairies, and stay away from giants, etc. Just as fairies have
> their own plans that don't really involve us (see John Crowley's Little,
> Big), the Hieros do what they do without much interest in human morality,
> and the undines even  less so.
>
> Several months ago, there was a discussion about what the New Sun would do
> to the undines. Clearly they are alive and well on Ushas, whether Abais
> himself survived or not. But they would have vanished utterly in Master
> Ash's timeline except for the small ones who could escape (like Idas).
>
> So why would they oppose Severian at all? Or was it rather the Commonwealth
> they opposed, perhaps as the heirs of Typhon and the first empire? You'd
> think thet'd want the New Sun to come and bring the Clean Slate with lots of
> water on the side.
>
>
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