Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS

Son of Witz · 12 Dec 2008, 02:21 · from 2008-December.txt.gz

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From: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org (Son of Witz)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:21:51 -0800
Subject: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS
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Message-ID: <4B7EB55A-2FD7-4E3A-91F8-5FAB0C2F39E1 at butcherbaker.org>

yeah. I agree with Jordon's worship comment.
The Increate name maps to the true godhead, The Uncreated, rather than  
a yahweh figure.
but I see no figure in NewSun that really does map to Yaweh. I suppose  
you're right that Tzadkiel is the closest, but I see him still in the  
archangel / djinn category, ontologically.
I can accept this sort of gnostic prison planet idea without an overt  
demiurge.  I sense the Black Iron Prison.

admittedly, PKD informs my notion of Christ heavily.

~witz



On Dec 11, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Jordon Flato wrote:

> Well, a big big difference here is that I don't see Tzadkiel asking  
> for worship, or denying the Increate, or putting himself in place of  
> the Increate.  He acknowledges his nullity in the face of the  
> Increate, and also never demands worship.  The Demiurge demands  
> worship, and tries to set himself up as God with a capital G.
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:02 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net 
> > wrote:
> Which is perfect, if you accept the parody theory. After all, the  
> Demiurge is a parody of God.
>
> BTW, I meant "atrocious" in my quote below. I think this term can  
> apply to actual atrocities as well as travesties of Christian form,  
> and nothing is more banal than a sci-fi cliche or a mundane  
> explanation of a miracle.
>
> I think the Conciliator is exactly that: "a healing energy sent in  
> from the true God into the realm of the Demiurge." Tzadkiel knows he  
> is no Demiurge, but he is clearly the higher being in charge of our  
> creation. To Urth, he is God in all the ways the Increate is not--- 
> the way the "hairy thunderer" Yahweh is everything the Christian God  
> is not.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:01:59 +0000
> From: "Son of Witz" <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> Subject: Re: (urth) Aside on Christ figures in TBotNS
> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Message-ID: <W2548019216258801229025719 at webmail36>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>> >I had forgotten that Tzadkiel's son fought and died in the judicial
>> >combat that confirmed Severian's success as Epitome.
>> >
>> >If Tzadkiel is the Demiurge, and the Demiurge is God, then that  
>> makes
>> >the son, well, his Son. Not sacrificed, but exposed to the risk of
>> >death, because Tzadkiel thought it wrong to judge Urth without  
>> putting
>> >something of his own on the block.
>> >
>> >Again, I am reminded of the theory that TBotNS presents parodies  
>> of the
>> >true religion, and the phrase in Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius that  
>> Wolfe
>> >has pointed at as an inspiration for TBotNS: "an atropious or banal
>> >reality."
>>
> Yeah, but as I understand it, the Demiurge is NOT God. The Demiurge  
> THINKS it's God. Half-Creator/ False-Creator.   I'm not clear on how  
> Christ as son of Yahweh fits in, but I believe that he exists as  
> part of the Godhead, not as actual spawn of Yahweh.  I don't know  
> though.  Surely there are many opinions.  In a work like Valis or  
> Divine Invasion, PKD shows a gnostic world where the Logos is a  
> healing energy sent in from the true God into the realm of the  
> Demiurge.  With that sort of view, Christ is still elevated far  
> beyond the false creator.
>
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