Hut in the Jungle

Son of Witz · 19 Mar 2009, 05:31 · from 2009-March.txt.gz

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From: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org (Son of Witz)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:31:05 -0700
Subject: (urth) Hut in the Jungle
In-Reply-To: <809930.83824.qm at web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <74682113-1E9F-483C-B997-B939E7CF2516 at butcherbaker.org>

no no.
It's not just "cute". it's fairly profound. it's literal, and it's a  
good example of why I've been saying the time loop is intractable.
Things in this story's past have their roots in it's temporal future.
I know it's a steady refrain from me, but Amphisbaena, Amphisbaena  
Amphisbaena.

He's suggesting they ARE Frankensein, and the "particular past event  
that Talos is referring to" is the writing of Frankenstein and other  
Promethean stories.
Dizzyingly awesome idea.
~witz

On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:

>
> Fair enough. (Although it leaves the Frankenstein reference as just  
> something "cute" to throw in there.)
>
> Can you explain how it works here? Is there a particular past event  
> that Talos is referring to that their present-as-future is  
> affecting? Perhaps both? Is he suggesting that they're writing  
> _Frankenstein_ at that moment? heh...
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:02:39 AM
> Subject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle
>
> No, Talos (or Wolfe) meant that pretty literally. We discussed this  
> when
> Wolfe and met in the mid 80's. John Cramer was also present. Gene  
> and I
> found that we agreed that time was a certain way, which includes  
> future
> events affecting the past in certain tricky ways.
>
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>> Gwern, I see what you mean about those being two directions of the  
>> same
>> issue. But there's something else going on there, as well.
>>
>> I always thought that Talos was really talking about myth and  
>> stories:
>> he's saying, "Hey, this is _Frankenstein_, but backwards!" And the  
>> point
>> is that myth shapes us, but we also move away from the original  
>> intent of
>> myths so that they are changed and distorted over time.
>>
>> What happens in the hut seems less about myth and story than about
>> reflecting on the consequences of one's actions, but also realizing  
>> that
>> who we are may be the consequence of someone else's actions.
>>
>> Both are about how, you're right, it's hard to pin down an "original"
>> cause or action. But they're dealing with different mechanisms:  
>> choices on
>> the one hand and myth/story on the other.
>>
>> I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that there may be  
>> different
>> ways that they're thinking about the relationship between past and  
>> future.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
>> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:27:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: (urth) Hut in the Jungle
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org 
>> >
>> wrote:
>> ...
>>> and they feel the Tokoloshe, spirits from the future.
>>> "Don't you see they are only the results of what we do? They are the
>>> spiritis of the future, and we make them ourselves?"
>>> Is this just saying that the fallen state of Urth is contemporary
>>> Earth's doing, somehow?
>> ...
>>> /confused
>>> ~witz
>>
>> I've always taken this as being the opposite of what is said in  
>> _Sword
>> of the Lictor_:
>>
>> 'Dr. Talos whispered, "Look about you???don't you recognize this? It
>> is just as he says!"
>> "What do you mean?" I whispered in return.
>> "The castle? The monster? The man of learning? I only just thought
>> of it. Surely you know that just as the momentous events of the past
>> cast their shadows down the ages, so now, when the sun is drawing
>> toward the dark, our own shadows race into the past to trouble
>> mankind's dreams."
>> "You're mad," I said. "Or joking."
>> "Mad?" Baldanders rumbled. "You are mad. You with your fantasies
>> of theurgy. How they must be laughing at us. They think all of us
>> barbarians... I, who have labored three lifetimes."'
>>
>> I've always loved that line: "our own shadows race into the past to
>> trouble
>> mankind's dreams."
>>
>> The spirits of the future trouble the dreams of the present, and the
>> present make the results that lie in the future. Which was the
>> original? Neither, perhaps.
>>
>> --
>> gwern
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