Babbie

Son of Witz · 19 Mar 2009, 05:49 · from 2009-March.txt.gz

This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site, so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.

From: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org (Son of Witz)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:49:34 -0700
Subject: (urth) Babbie
In-Reply-To: <BLU120-W53781999F5B133264C324186960 at phx.gbl>
References: <W1932525930220201237419617@webmail39><A54E48EA63964BE7B8A4F6273FA82D1C@eMachinePC><20090319023228.GR21587 at broggs.org><e8e9702e0903181954v922b508h6a52165ea09e76b5 at mail.gmail.com>
	<3B9CA387-1367-4B15-AE3A-E36CA1D5A738 at butcherbaker.org>
	<93EF3F2B27F14A66B216B9275E6EA40A@eMachinePC>
	<DE725E3B-9662-425B-B323-33232EBE8FB4 at butcherbaker.org>
	<BLU120-W53781999F5B133264C324186960 at phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A7B1069-BA31-4A2D-91BA-1B1FFF589143 at butcherbaker.org>


On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:41 PM, Chris P wrote:

>
> > >> Witz: I think there's some timeline screw up here.
> > >> When Horn get's permission, he's plain Horn. The Rajan writes  
> about
> > >> it after the fact, with his Horn memories.
> > >> he'd have to be lying, which is of course possible, but...
> > >
> > > When tBotSS starts, it is the Raja who is writing. Not only is he
> > > Horn, but he is also Silk. He has already flown to Green and died,
> > > returned to the Whorl, and come back to rule. The Raja is a
> > > Neighbor, but he has all of Horn's memories and identity within  
> him.
> > > Same for Silk. 100% of what Horn was is within him. 100% of Silk.
> > >
> > > The Raja makes a choice to assert Horn within him. He could have
> > > chosen to do the same for Silk. He doesn't for a very obvious
> > > reason. When he says he's Horn, he's not lying. He's disturbed. As
> > > so often is the case with Wolfe's characters, he's telling a lie
> > > that is also the truth, but it's not the whole truth.
> > >
> > > He denies his Neighborness for the same reason he denies he is
> > > Silk...because if he's really "not-Horn" then Horn is dead and he
> > > killed him. It is not until after the battle that he embraces  
> who he
> > > is at a conscious level. But he still can't bring himself to face
> > > Hoof and Hide on the day he leaves for the Whorl --as he says--
> > > because he killed their father.
> > >
> > > J.
> >
> > Ok. I just read that old post of yours, and I think I get you more
> > clearly.
> > http://lists.urth.net/htdig.cgi/urth-urth.net/2004-December/004360.html
> >
> > Witz: You're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/ 
> Silk/
> > Neighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas.
>
> At least the way I read it, Pas did not have a soul as such. He was  
> a... pattern, or a psyche (in the terminology I remember us using in  
> that particular conversation) at best. Typhon's soul stayed with  
> Typhon. Even that psyche was not exactly Typhon, because it had  
> either changed on its own or been edited to fit its new role on the  
> ship (not to mention the things that happened to it afterward).

I hear you.  But wouldn't that mean that Divine Silk was a pattern and  
not a soul or psyche?
I've understood that it was Divine Silk that got into Pig and thus  
Horn/Silk.
Unless of course, Divine Silk doesn't really factor in at all, and  
somehow Silk's soul got into Pig by some other means.

I'm not trying to make a watertight case for any particular view, just  
trying to parse out the possibilities.  I'm completely up in the air  
about it.
I know I thoroughly enjoyed these books before I even got a clue about  
the third soul. If Stu hadn't clued me into the pen case, I don't  
think I would have caught a whiff at all.

An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net