Babbie

Son of Witz · 19 Mar 2009, 14:00 · from 2009-March.txt.gz

This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site, so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.

From: sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org (Son of Witz)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 07:00:03 -0700
Subject: (urth) Babbie
In-Reply-To: <C618A0720EEC4E04899A36557FB02EE1@eMachinePC>
References: <W1932525930220201237419617@webmail39><A54E48EA63964BE7B8A4F6273FA82D1C@eMachinePC><20090319023228.GR21587 at broggs.org><e8e9702e0903181954v922b508h6a52165ea09e76b5 at mail.gmail.com><3B9CA387-1367-4B15-AE3A-E36CA1D5A738 at butcherbaker.org><93EF3F2B27F14A66B216B9275E6EA40A@eMachinePC><DE725E3B-9662-425B-B323-33232EBE8FB4 at butcherbaker.org><BLU120-W53781999F5B133264C324186960 at phx.gbl>
	<4A7B1069-BA31-4A2D-91BA-1B1FFF589143 at butcherbaker.org>
	<C618A0720EEC4E04899A36557FB02EE1@eMachinePC>
Message-ID: <AE87E4FF-0FB5-4308-80FC-688FE1903C27 at butcherbaker.org>


On Mar 19, 2009, at 4:45 AM, James Wynn wrote:

>>>> Witz: You're NOT including Pas in your Trinity right? just Horn/  
>>>> Silk/Neighbor. Not Horn/Silk/Neighbor/Pas.
>
>>> Chis P: At least the way I read it, Pas did not have a soul as  
>>> such. He was  a... pattern, or a psyche (in the terminology I  
>>> remember us using in that particular conversation) at best.  
>>> Typhon's soul stayed with  Typhon. Even that psyche was not  
>>> exactly Typhon, because it had  either changed on its own or been  
>>> edited to fit its new role on the  ship (not to mention the things  
>>> that happened to it afterward).
>>
>> I hear you.  But wouldn't that mean that Divine Silk was a pattern  
>> and not a soul or psyche?
>> I've understood that it was Divine Silk that got into Pig and thus  
>> Horn/Silk.
>> Unless of course, Divine Silk doesn't really factor in at all, and  
>> somehow Silk's soul got into Pig by some other means.
>>
>
> The question of whether Wolfe views souls as physical/wave or  
> metaphysical entities is still an issue of debate. He treats them as  
> both. But think of Abel's discussion with Mani the cat about whether  
> he is a cat or an elemental spirit. Abel says he is neither. For as  
> long as they are together, he's a new entity made up of both.
>
> There are only three people in the Raja...and only three souls.   
> When the Raja takes on Silk's body and his mind, he takes on both  
> Silk and any daemon riding along when he died --which would not be  
> Silk or Pas but the Silk-Pas. This is further complicated by the  
> fact that Pas is no longer the original Pas either. They had to add  
> a little bit of Silk to complete him (so Pas has Silk's head now).  
> Consequently, Pas himself is also Silk-Pas, so what's the  
> difference? (And Typhon, when Sev met him --and apparently when he  
> was scanned-- also consisted of two souls, right? Hmmmm...The head  
> that was changed in Pas was the tyrant's, not Pieton's, right?. How  
> much of the old Urth's calde even exists in Pas anymore? )
>
> So, only three souls and only three Horns. But the three are not  
> necessarily the same three. If you are familiar with the way Wolfe  
> weaves mythology into his stories and characters, then you know he's  
> quite comfortable with this sort of double and triple -iteration.
>
> J
> _______________________________________________

hmmm.   Not trying to argue, but regarding "he takes on both Silk and  
any daemon riding along when he died --which would not be Silk or Pas  
but the Silk-Pas."
doesn't it contradict this statement "And Typhon, when Sev met him -- 
and apparently when he was scanned-- also consisted of two souls,  
right?"
is it one or two.  I'd say Silk-Pas or Pas-Silk is two souls.

I really think your theory is interesting, but I think it needs the  
justification for the Neighbor being a greenbuck.
and wow, I didn't know about that whorlmap site. I'll read up there.



On Mar 19, 2009, at 12:36 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> Oh, there were. But I'm not going to get into it again, either. Just  
> don't
> take everything thrown out here as accepted wisdom. Far, far from it.
>
> -Roy


nah. of course not. Not even yours, though I think you've got a pretty  
credible take from what I've read.

An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net