The Devil in a Forest

Lane Haygood · 19 May 2009, 18:18 · from 2009-May.txt.gz

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From: lhaygood at gmail.com (Lane Haygood)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:18:55 -0500
Subject: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
In-Reply-To: <10447.67.142.130.18.1242756818.squirrel at brunians.org>
References: <mailman.68358.1242741493.12296.urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net>
	<4A12C26E.1070002 at verizon.net>
	<1957.67.142.130.41.1242744422.squirrel at brunians.org>
	<99BD246A-58EB-498A-B4E5-99C94186507E at gmail.com>
	<10447.67.142.130.18.1242756818.squirrel at brunians.org>
Message-ID: <56C9453D-8E21-490A-9804-7B5254121D44 at gmail.com>

That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

> 'tends to'.
>
> Once in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of  
> touch
> with reality. Not too often.
>
> Actually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in  
> touch
> enough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk  
> to one
> often enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so
> (like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is  
> performed by
> legal process, things like that).
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>> I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist party. I
>> also do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the other
>> that Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his
>> stories are still very, very awesome.
>>
>> Good literature transcends factionalism.
>>
>> Lane
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, "Wolfe is pro-gun" has the ring of truth to it, as does
>>> "Wolfe
>>> is a fiscal conservative". He has his point of view on things.
>>> People who
>>> agree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.
>>>
>>> People who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views  
>>> very
>>> different from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through interesting
>>> hoops
>>> whilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what everyone
>>> else
>>> seems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at
>>> length.
>>> Like most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>> I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is.
>>>> Sure,
>>>> Wolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just
>>>> propagandize for
>>>> a narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes
>>>> things as
>>>> black and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.
>>>> Rather, he
>>>> asks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of
>>>> answers.
>>>>
>>>> Almost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it
>>>> simple---says "Wolfe is pro-gun," for example---is going to be
>>>> inadequate,
>>>> even if not flatly wrong.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if there
>>>> is a
>>>> devil hiding in them.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500
>>>> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
>>>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>> Message-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>   reply-type=original
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> "Propaganda" may be just the right term for Wolfe.
>>>>>> Originally it was a term used by the Vatican for the
>>>>>> propagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I use the term "propaganda" to mean "the attempt to persuade at the
>>>> non-rational level". It has a bad rap because it is typically so
>>>> inartfully
>>>> done. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well- 
>>>> seasoned
>>>> juices
>>>> of the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later
>>>> time.
>>>> You
>>>> have to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to
>>>> tell_.
>>>> "The Devil in a Forest" does that. If the work is essentially
>>>> framed in a
>>>> "message", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to approach
>>>> the
>>>> propaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its power.
>>>> For
>>>> example, Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land" is fantastic
>>>> Communist
>>>> propaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is
>>>> hack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> ...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only "fantasy" element in the
>>>>> book...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are
>>>> subtle
>>>> hints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might not
>>>> be mere
>>>> superstition at all.  And at least twice it is noted that she *is*
>>>> unexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not
>>>> merely a
>>>> fantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational
>>>> event is
>>>> the abbe's healing.
>>>>
>>>> J.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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