The Devil in a Forest

James Wynn · 19 May 2009, 20:15 · from 2009-May.txt.gz
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From: crushtv at gmail.com (James Wynn)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:15:54 -0500
Subject: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
In-Reply-To: <FCFA2082-5E69-4CCE-BF35-CEF467FA7877 at gmail.com>
References: <mailman.68358.1242741493.12296.urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net><4A12C26E.1070002 at verizon.net><1957.67.142.130.41.1242744422.squirrel at brunians.org><99BD246A-58EB-498A-B4E5-99C94186507E at gmail.com><10447.67.142.130.18.1242756818.squirrel at brunians.org><56C9453D-8E21-490A-9804-7B5254121D44 at gmail.com><6843.67.142.130.18.1242757966.squirrel at brunians.org><4AD7515D-5B04-4D95-BF80-774B9820A60B at gmail.com><5354.67.142.130.18.1242760194.squirrel at brunians.org>
	<FCFA2082-5E69-4CCE-BF35-CEF467FA7877 at gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F815E3E9228C49208D839A57B460A711@eMachinePC>

Go over to the "Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again) thread. I'm reserving 
this one for actual discussions of "The Devil in a Forest".
:-)

J.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Lane Haygood" <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:10 PM
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Subject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest

> I am. I became a Marxist during law school when I studied critical  legal 
> theory. It's an outgrowth of my abiding interest in German  Idealism, 
> phenomenology and Continental philosophy in general. In my  practice as a 
> lawyer (for the State) I apply the principles of  critical criminology (a 
> la Willem Bonger) to criminal prosecution,  using the law and the power of 
> collective society to bring about  social justice. The economics of the 
> situation are central to my  thinking and my practice.
>
> But, I realize that my viewpoint is not somehow privileged or right by 
> fiat. I understand you and your position, and while I don't share it,  I 
> can't begrudge you your own choices. Politically, this is the beauty  of 
> democracy.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 19, 2009, at 2:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>
>> So do you just say and titter at each other or do you have some  examples
>> (you will note that I gave two examples of what I was talking about)?
>>
>> Are you really a member of CPUSA, Lane? I thought that they were all 
>> gone,
>> Gus Hall fucked off to North Korea when the Russian money was cut off.
>>
>> It's sort of quaint, really. Like meeting a time traveller.
>>
>> Are you one of those crusty old commies like my quasirelative Dave  Wald
>> (http://www.sanjosepeace.org/mediagallery/album.php?aid=8)? If you are
>> younger than thirty or so you should be aware that you may not  actually 
>> be
>> a socialist, but a larval conservative: the process by which a young
>> socialist becomes and old capitalist is widely known.
>>
>> Peace and Freedom!
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> No, I meant out of touch with reality.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Really?
>>>>
>>>> I have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues
>>>> money
>>>> or that theft is OK when performed by the government.
>>>>
>>>> I'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how  its
>>>> mind works (or should that be "how its 'mind' 'works'").
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>> That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> 'tends to'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out  of
>>>>>> touch
>>>>>> with reality. Not too often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in
>>>>>> touch
>>>>>> enough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk
>>>>>> to one
>>>>>> often enough you will find that he believes stuff that just  ain't so
>>>>>> (like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is
>>>>>> performed by
>>>>>> legal process, things like that).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist
>>>>>>> party. I
>>>>>>> also do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> that Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his
>>>>>>> stories are still very, very awesome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good literature transcends factionalism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lane
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, "Wolfe is pro-gun" has the ring of truth to it, as  does
>>>>>>>> "Wolfe
>>>>>>>> is a fiscal conservative". He has his point of view on things.
>>>>>>>> People who
>>>>>>>> agree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views
>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>> different from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through
>>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>>> hoops
>>>>>>>> whilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what
>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>> seems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at
>>>>>>>> length.
>>>>>>>> Like most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda
>>>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>>> Sure,
>>>>>>>>> Wolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just
>>>>>>>>> propagandize for
>>>>>>>>> a narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes
>>>>>>>>> things as
>>>>>>>>> black and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.
>>>>>>>>> Rather, he
>>>>>>>>> asks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of
>>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Almost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it
>>>>>>>>> simple---says "Wolfe is pro-gun," for example---is going to be
>>>>>>>>> inadequate,
>>>>>>>>> even if not flatly wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if
>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>> devil hiding in them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500
>>>>>>>>> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
>>>>>>>>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>
>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>>>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Propaganda" may be just the right term for Wolfe.
>>>>>>>>>>> Originally it was a term used by the Vatican for the
>>>>>>>>>>> propagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper  meaning.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I use the term "propaganda" to mean "the attempt to persuade at
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> non-rational level". It has a bad rap because it is typically  so
>>>>>>>>> inartfully
>>>>>>>>> done. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-
>>>>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>>>>> juices
>>>>>>>>> of the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a  later
>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>> have to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never  _to
>>>>>>>>> tell_.
>>>>>>>>> "The Devil in a Forest" does that. If the work is essentially
>>>>>>>>> framed in a
>>>>>>>>> "message", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to
>>>>>>>>> approach
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> propaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its
>>>>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>>>> example, Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land" is fantastic
>>>>>>>>> Communist
>>>>>>>>> propaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is
>>>>>>>>> hack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only "fantasy" element in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> book...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There  are
>>>>>>>>> subtle
>>>>>>>>> hints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> be mere
>>>>>>>>> superstition at all.  And at least twice it is noted that she
>>>>>>>>> *is*
>>>>>>>>> unexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also  not
>>>>>>>>> merely a
>>>>>>>>> fantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non- rational
>>>>>>>>> event is
>>>>>>>>> the abbe's healing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> J.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>>>>>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009
>>>>>>>>> Tested on: 5/19/2009 10:30:07 AM
>>>>>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>>>>>>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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