Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)

Adam Thornton · 19 May 2009, 21:09 · from 2009-May.txt.gz

This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site, so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.

From: adam at io.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:09:43 -0500
Subject: (urth) Gene Wolfe Fans Talk Politics (Again)
In-Reply-To: <2D85DC7E1002442C9FFC385EBA1BB3A0@eMachinePC>
References: <mailman.68838.1242757770.12296.urth-urth.net at lists.urth.net><4A1304A1.1000901 at verizon.net><13409.67.142.130.18.1242761222.squirrel at brunians.org><2BCC6FAA-905B-4A04-BFAE-817E0EDE9BD8 at io.com><D67BBCB673F4491BB8DC3A37289BD563@eMachinePC><002BF131-691F-4247-B56E-19C9D86BDA6D at io.com><50586EEE2CA14862AA7A038867E0B211@eMachinePC>
	<9ABFD473-EF4F-44FA-8C53-9A140080E64F at io.com>
	<2D85DC7E1002442C9FFC385EBA1BB3A0@eMachinePC>
Message-ID: <F692D3D3-5B04-432A-B757-4DDDECFD95F8 at io.com>

On May 19, 2009, at 3:47 PM, James Wynn wrote:

> If you really believe that a "full-on social-services safety-net  
> state" is important you should be happy to fund it to the same  
> degree as your fellow citizens and laborers. I agree that such a  
> system could not be compared to "robbing from the rich to give to  
> the poor."

Of course, "fund it to the same degree," and "robbing from the rich to  
give to the poor," each themselves admit multiple interpretations.

One way of "funding it to the same degree" would be to demand a flat  
amount from each citizen.

This strikes most people as impractical, as, if each contribution were  
limited to that which could be squeezed from the poorest citizen,  
there would be effectively no revenue to pay for the service.

One way would be to impose the same percentage fee on each citizen,  
regardless of income.  This is usually what Libertarians claim to  
like.  However, such a plan ignores the (I think fairly important)  
observation that the marginal value of money decreases the more of it  
you have.

By that I simply mean--and I suspect that I am not alone on this list-- 
that I've lived on $15,000, $30,000, and $60,000 a year.  One would  
expect from the flat-percentage argument that the difference in  
lifestyle comfort between $30,000 and $60,000 would have been double  
the difference between $15,000 and $30,000.  This is, in my  
experience, manifestly not so--indeed, quite the opposite.  The  
difference between $30,000 and $60,000 was very minor compared to the  
difference between $15,000 and $30,000.  That implies that the  
marginal value to me of each dollar between $15,000 and $30,000 was  
more than double the marginal value of each dollar between $30,000 and  
$60,000.

( By way of example: at $15K, I shared a run-down house with several  
other people, ate ramen and similarly-priced but unexciting  
food--"eating out" meant fast food or very, very cheap restaurants,  
and even so, was done very sparingly--and very rarely bought books,  
and almost never new books.  At $30K, I and my partner had a rented  
house of our own, ate meat when we felt like it and occasionally ate  
out at restaurants with metal cutlery, and went to a new-book  
bookstore a couple times a month.  At $60K, we owned (for values of  
ownership meaning "had a mortgage on") a house similar to the one we  
had rented, ate meat when we felt like it and could go eat at nicer  
restaurants if and when we wanted, and went to the bookstore a little  
bit more often. )

Hence a third way would be to impose a tax that causes the same amount  
of inconvenience at all levels of income.  This is approximately what  
progressive income taxes attempt to do.  I would argue that current US  
taxation levels are somewhere between the second and third models.

"Robbing from the rich to give to the poor," is simply the same  
argument stood on its head, of course.  Does taxation go from  
"legitimate" to "robbery" at a value derived from the absolute dollar  
value of the tax, from a percentage of income across all income  
ranges, or to a degree of inconvenience across all income ranges?

Adam

An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net