Digest urth.v019.n026

Alex David Groce · 22 Oct 1998, 09:51 · from urth-v0020.mbox · original

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From: "Alex David Groce" <adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n026
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:51:55
Message-ID: <urth-v0020-0091 at digest.urth.net>
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Sgt. Rock said:
> Actually, I'd be very interested in learning more about that. Where would
> one look to find supernatural evil in Judaism? I'm not sure I can find it=
 in
> the Old Testament, though it's present in the New. Sure, you've got the
> talking "serpent" in the Garden, but he was just a mischievous dragon, as
> far as I can tell. You've got the "Accuser" in Job, but he seems part of =
the
> heavenly crowd, sort of God's prosecuting attorney. If you're talking abo=
ut
> modern Jewish literature, then the supernatural evil couldn't possibly be=
 a
> pre-Semitic survival, could it?

Hmmm...  The idols of the surrounding tribes are pretty much treated as wit=
hout
power; I can't think of an instance where they actually do anything--althou=
gh
the only times they would be doing anything would be in "competition" with =
God
and even if they were seen as actual beings or shadows of some (shadowy
itself...) being they'd still be null in that case...

> It's in the New Testament that you get the real Good/Evil polarity, the
> notion of a Judgment, and the belief that if you pass the Judgment, then
> eternal life is your reward. I don't even think they have the same concept
> of "sin" in the OT. Christ casts out demons, and speaks of an "evil one" =
who
> wants to destroy the harvest. From the fact that he spoke like this, I mu=
st
> assume that the concept of "Satan" was not foreign to Jews of the time. B=
ut
> what was its origin? Did it creep in somehow between the Old Testament and
> the New? This has puzzled me for a long time.

Yes.  The idea was definitely present in Jewish thought by the time of Chri=
st.
I forget the pieced together developmental history, but it was also identif=
ied
by that time (pre-Christian) with the serpent in the garden and the Accuser=
 in
Job.  I forget though, which groups held and which didn't hold the idea.

> Sure, Christianity did a lot of assimilating and co-opting. That's what m=
ade
> it so successful. As you point out, the assimilation is mostly on the lev=
el
> of folk-belief. However, the notion of an Evil One is pretty much part and
> parcel of official Christian belief, and the old devil has caused a lot of
> trouble for theologians.

Well, you'd think that would be right up his alley, wouldn't you? :)

> As I said above, I'm not certain that the Accuser in Job fits the Satanic
> job description. One could argue that Job is best grouped with Ecclesiast=
es,
> the Psalms and the Song of Solomon as not being the same type of literatu=
re
> as the Pentateuch or the Prophets--nobody sensible thinks the Song is any
> sort of historical narrative, for instance. But I note with respect your
> argument that if Satan is void, then so are the angels from among whom he
> fell. I'm not sure which direction I want to go on that one.
>=20
> I must conclude that only my cat is sure what kind of stuff Satan is made
> out of. Perhaps I can get him to post again about it some time. At this
> point, I'll just limit myself to observing that Satan being a void is a
> theological necessity, otherwise you get in Big Trouble, fall prey to
> theological dualism, and get burned at the stake. It's sort of like the
> Trinity.

I think sort of the standard description would be the stuff of good, perver=
ted
by ill-will--you get into dualism if you suggest there's any other kind of
stuff to be made of.  Void, but active with malice.  I've been trying to th=
ink
of a Wolfe work with some supernatural evil in it--Abaia and Erebus don't f=
it
the description; I think there's a faint hint of it at times in Long Sun--M=
ucor
and the vampires aren't supernatural, but suggest it (Mucor make's me think=
 of
the kid in the Exorcist...)  THE DEVIL IN A FOREST is actually the best I c=
an
come up with--the little idol.  Since Wolfe thinks the Greek gods may have =
been
some kind of beings, it's not too far out to have an idol be demonic.

--=20
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)
Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)
'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President
608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce

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