Julian Jaynes' Bicameral Brain

Michael Straight · 29 Oct 1998, 10:21 · from urth-v0021.mbox · original

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: (urth) Julian Jaynes' Bicameral Brain
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:21:31
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On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Alex David Groce wrote:
> Mothman said:
> > Has Julian Jaynes' theory expressed in "The Origin of Consciousness in =
the
> > Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" ever been discused in relation to Wolf=
e's
> > "Soldier of the Mist?"  If I read it right, Jaynes beleives that self
> > consciousness didn't develop until about 500 B.C. and that any internal
> > voices, motivations, or initiative, prior to this thinking shift, would=
 have
> > been attributed to Gods -- that in the Iliad, when the gods speak they =
are
> > only heard by the heroes they are speaking too -- this is what makes hu=
mans
> > act.  Sounds like the situation the character in Wolfe's book finds
> > himself -- hallucinating gods, being at their mercy, no real concept of
> > having a say in what's going on around him. Maybe not...
>=20
> 	I don't think we've discussed this, but it sounds as if Wolfe might
> have had it in mind.  On the other hand, I think Latro actually has a fai=
rly
> developed self-consciousness (at least of the same peculiar kind as Sever=
ian,
> his mnemonic opposite, has)--it seems that there IS a line between the go=
ds and
> the self to be found.  For example, his desire to get home seems to be a =
tool
> the gods use to manipulate him--hardly possible if he had no self to dang=
el a
> carrot in front of.

Exactly.  Following Mothman's hypothesis, one would expect Latro's desire
to manifest as regular visits from Hestia urging him to search out his
kindred and get home.   Except that Wolfe would find three other more
obscure names for her and use them interchangably with one he made up.

I've heard of Jaynes' theory before and find it intriguing, but never
read the book to see how (she?/he?) defends it.  Thanks for reminding me
of the book, I'd like to check it out.=20

It reminds me of C.S. Lewis's argument that ancient peoples did not make
the same distinctions we make between physical and spiritual; that there
didn't need to be different words for spirit and wind because they were
the same thing; that no one bothered to ask to what extent "seated at the
right hand of God" was literal or figurative; that no one would think to
ask, "Am I really participating in this liturgy, or am I just going
through the motions?  Am I really worshiping or just dancing?"=20

-Rostrum

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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