traveling north

John Watkins · 03 Jun 2010, 16:37 · from 2010-June.txt.gz
This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site, so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.
From: john.watkins04 at gmail.com (John Watkins)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:37:16 -0400
Subject: (urth) traveling north
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimZFzds7pSbN442JqRrcMclom0cjXoW75AkHR26 at mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT123-W17F478B464F0A2A2D619BECFD10 at phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTin3rMIbdFlB_Ts9oQg54a5xHmUMyoxL-4Rly5wb at mail.gmail.com>
	<COL105-W6B0E3F09D93E0A7430DAF85D10 at phx.gbl>
	<07e417fccdd43f81f01ae6443657010a.squirrel at brunians.org>
	<COL105-W6542F88CE562742D51698485D10 at phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTinfvuimH5NosPxyCjh7_vFr6euHaYza0hjXvtUa at mail.gmail.com>
	<48de6c2703ee12fc6c29c83baa351a8a.squirrel at brunians.org>
	<AANLkTimZFzds7pSbN442JqRrcMclom0cjXoW75AkHR26 at mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikKZFubdJP6qYaFkm37SrSmfe3LpkiNb55M2TRe at mail.gmail.com>

I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero
Muslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born.  It'd
be an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free
agents.

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct. ?There are
> approximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2
> billion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan
> of the wiki). ?There are only about 14 million Mormons.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, ?<brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>> I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of
>> Europe were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.
>> Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily
>> adaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern
>> Arizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly
>> henolatric (eg
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).
>>
>> Christianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is indeed
>> the World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think of
>> as a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of course)
>> as the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including some
>> Mormons as something other.
>>
>> If you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its
>> several branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.
>>
>> .
>>
>>> I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.
>>>
>>> As a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira
>>> <domus_artemis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So?the Jesus
>>>> "equivalent" already happened in Urth's past.?And maybe Jesus too
>>>> further in
>>>> the past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the Second
>>>> Coming or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about this
>>>> kind
>>>> of stuff, I'm not even religious.
>>>>
>>>> I don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:
>>>>
>>>> "The Urth we are reading about
>>>> is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its
>>>> spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>> plagued our pagan ancestors."
>>>>
>>>> Do the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much
>>>> "enlightened" now than it was at the time of our "pagan ancestors" (not
>>>> to
>>>> mention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)??Is
>>>> that
>>>> what Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,
>>>> but?Severian/Conciliator rings like "Jesus" (probably second comming) to
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400
>>>>> From: brunians at brunians.org
>>>>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>>
>>>>> Severian is the Conciliator.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or am I missing something?
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I agree. The Conciliator was the "jesus" of Urth. And that already
>>>>> > happened in the past of Urth.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400
>>>>> >> From: eugene.zar at gmail.com
>>>>> >> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman
>>>>> <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually
>>>>> >> > advanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly
>>>>> >> > spiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,
>>>>> >> > Severian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about
>>>>> >> > is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its
>>>>> >> > spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>>> >> > plagued our pagan ancestors.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to me
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> be very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically
>>>>> >> comes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.
>>>>> >> Severian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is apparent
>>>>> >> early in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in
>>>>> >> part, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:
>>>>> >> salvation.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> >> > The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple
>>>>> calendars
>>>>> >> with Hotmail.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
>>>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> > Urth Mailing List
>>>>> >> > To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>> >> > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> Eugene Z
>>>>> >> http://blog.eugenez.net
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Urth Mailing List
>>>>> >> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>> >> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969_______________________________________________
>>>>> > Urth Mailing List
>>>>> > To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>> > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Urth Mailing List
>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>
>
An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net