Allegory

brunians at brunians.org · 06 Jun 2010, 05:36 · from 2010-June.txt.gz
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From: brunians at brunians.org (brunians at brunians.org)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 01:36:39 -0400
Subject: (urth) Allegory
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Right.

.


> It's a fable.  If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death
> was
> deemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning.
>
> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>  Of course it's an allegory...just a "good" one. Even Tolkien broke his
>> own rules: what is "Leaf by Niggle" if not an allegory?
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>>
>> *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> *Sent:* Sat, June 5, 2010 11:53:32 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: (urth) Allegory
>>
>> I rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory.  He
>> took the time to translate it, after all.
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith
>> <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> "But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always
>>> have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.
>>> I
>>> much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to
>>> the
>>> thought and experience of readers.  I think that  many confuse
>>> 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of
>>> the
>>> reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."
>>> --Tolkien,
>>> Foreword to  The Lord of the Rings
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Jack
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of
>>>> ancient
>>>> languages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval
>>>> literature.
>>>> Apparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to "allegory" was
>>>> specifically targeted against the strain of _Piers Plowman_/_Confessio
>>>> Amantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties and which he was
>>>> of
>>>> course familiar with. (I'm getting this from my memory of _The
>>>> Inklings_ and
>>>> other stuff from his letters.)
>>>>
>>>> To the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to
>>>> mythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its
>>>> original context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over
>>>> it.
>>>> But Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt
>>>> "message," if
>>>> that's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even the Bible,
>>>> all of
>>>> which he loved for their mythic status, are generally "allegorical"
>>>> but not
>>>> allegorical in the same way that _The Romance of the Rose_ or _The
>>>> Pearl_ is
>>>> allegorical. They model a way of living, a mindset, an idealized
>>>> culture,
>>>> etc., but they aren't allegorical in the reductive way that _Pilgrim's
>>>> Progress_ has walking personifications and where meanings can be
>>>> decoded in
>>>> a this-means-that relationship.
>>>>
>>>> They also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated
>>>> the
>>>> idea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany
>>>> "allegory." I
>>>> think Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be
>>>> thought
>>>> of as contributing to thinking about certain situations like that --
>>>> after
>>>> all, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our outlook? But he
>>>> resisted the idea that his books were allegory if that meant that you
>>>> say
>>>> "Sauron is Hitler" and walk away thinking you solved the puzzle.
>>>>
>>>> Relation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as
>>>> Spenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that
>>>> uses
>>>> its symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just reduce
>>>> an
>>>> icon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the same way
>>>> for me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
>>>> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>> Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:14:12 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>
>>>> On 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>> > He'd whine loudly.
>>>>
>>>> In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled it.
>>>> But
>>>> that didn't stop him from producing some, however unintentionally.
>>>>
>>>> -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
>>>> IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
>>>> < http://ieeetamut.org/ >
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Urth Mailing List
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Jack
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Urth Mailing List
>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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