Appearances of Inire

David Stockhoff · 01 Jul 2010, 02:38 · from 2010-June.txt.gz
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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:38:22 -0400
Subject: (urth) Appearances of Inire
In-Reply-To: <a3d6d23ff37948983ff0058a640e9990.squirrel at brunians.org>
References: <SNT123-W896FBC5C32F4238BC96E9CFCB0 at phx.gbl>	<4C2A8439.7010601 at verizon.net>	<279682a30f07f6be34054939efc1387e.squirrel at brunians.org>	<4C2A9332.1010309 at verizon.net>
	<a3d6d23ff37948983ff0058a640e9990.squirrel at brunians.org>
Message-ID: <4C2BFF9E.3090701 at verizon.net>

I'll make the quote marks bigger next time.

brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Angels and fairies are not even a lot like gods.
>
> They are much more like human beings than they are like gods.
>
> .
>
>
>   
>> Thus the double quotes.
>>
>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>     
>>> These guys are not gods.
>>>
>>> They are angels or fairies or some such.
>>>
>>> The distinction is nontrivial.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Wolfe bases all his "gods" on "real" gods. Yes, there does seem to be a
>>>> pairing of Mother and Father in Inire and the Cumaean, but then there
>>>> would be.
>>>>
>>>> Lee Berman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>>> Well, obviously Inire's also Master Ultan.  Since he's clearly the
>>>>>> Librarian.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> Yes, Ultan is a curator. And like some other candidates, Ultan's eyes
>>>>> are obscured. I think the dark haired woman in the grave is some
>>>>> version
>>>>> of Catherine. Why does Severian see her face in Ultan's? Could he be
>>>>> Catherine's father? If Inire is also Dorcas' husband, he would appear
>>>>> as grandfather to Severian on both sides of the family. Why IS he
>>>>> called
>>>>> "Father" Inire? I can't recall any religious association.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Is Inire known to travel in time, himself?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> If he is Isangoma, who resembles the jungle shaman, then I'd say, yes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Why limit Inire to male characters? If he can be a fraking robot
>>>>>> (Ossipago)
>>>>>> and monkey his way up Agia's family tree (which, according to some,
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> him related to Severian), and be both dead characters (Boatman,
>>>>>> Maxellindis'
>>>>>> uncle) and living ones, a change of gender is no obstacle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> In UotNS we are rather explicitly shown that Tzadkiel can change size,
>>>>> shape
>>>>> gender and plurality, so I agree with Roy's statement. If there is a
>>>>> female
>>>>> version of Father Inire, the most likely candidate is Cumaean. One is
>>>>> Father,
>>>>> the other is The Mother. We hear them paired as alike but they are
>>>>> never
>>>>> quite
>>>>> together. Inire has his monkey essence, the Cumaean has her snake
>>>>> essence. I
>>>>> don't know if they are supposed to be borne of the same original
>>>>> entity
>>>>> or not
>>>>> but they could be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given the Tzadkiel model, there is no reason there can't be multiple
>>>>> versions
>>>>> of the same being running around manipulating Severian's life and
>>>>> travels. We
>>>>> are told that not even Tzadkiel can resurrect a dead person. So, I
>>>>> suspect,
>>>>> neither can Father Inire (or the Cumaean, by herself). Perhaps it
>>>>> wasn't
>>>>> a
>>>>> coincidence the boatman just happened to be there on the lake when
>>>>> Severian
>>>>> showed up. How else could he restore his long dead wife?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tzadkiel is an angel (who never comes to Urth). What is Inire?
>>>>>
>>>>> Genesis 6:1-8 seems to suggest that the purpose of The Flood was to
>>>>> cleanse
>>>>> the earth and humanity of a corruption brought on by the mating of
>>>>> fallen
>>>>> angels and human women, producing giants, demons, etc. Severian's
>>>>> resistance to
>>>>> the seduction of Juturna is significant. What is the purpose of the
>>>>> Flood
>>>>> of Urth? The same as the Biblical Flood, I think.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that Wolfe is making the point that the fallen angels of
>>>>> Judeo-Christianity bear a striking resemblance to the gods and
>>>>> monsters
>>>>> of pagan mythology and are, perhaps, one and the same. Incestuous,
>>>>> large
>>>>> sized,
>>>>> animal essenced, shape-changing, other "magic" abilities, mating with
>>>>> humans, the
>>>>> pattern is fairly consistent. (Hephaestus is an artisan, bent and
>>>>> twisted,
>>>>> sometimes depicted with red hair).
>>>>>
>>>>> One more candidate for Father Inire- Cyriaca's book-loving "uncle" who
>>>>> seems to
>>>>> know so much about the inner workings of the Autarchy and the history
>>>>> of
>>>>> humanity
>>>>> and the universe. And Cyriaca does share some characteristics with
>>>>> Catherine.
>>>>> Cyriaca's dark hair paired with a red-headed father might produce the
>>>>> chestnut color
>>>>> we find in Agia and Agilus. Thus the origin of the incestuous curse
>>>>> which seems to
>>>>> plague Severian's family- the Father.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Severian only screws his relatives, by logical extension "All You
>>>>>> Zombies"
>>>>>> is us and we are Inire, but we are not alone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>> Yes. I once read a Gene Wolfe interview in which he said he was
>>>>> unhappy
>>>>> with his
>>>>> status as an only child and spent much of his youth scouring the faces
>>>>> of strangers
>>>>> for signs of hidden family and lost kinship. This is more explicitly
>>>>> themed in
>>>>> Fifth Head of Cerberus but I think it makes a significant appearance
>>>>> in
>>>>> New Sun also.
>>>>>
>>>>> (p.s. the "battles" over these issues from a few years ago were
>>>>> invaluable to me in
>>>>> helping clarify my interpretations. I truly appreciate all those who
>>>>> participated and
>>>>> helped me)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
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