Urth Net
Appearances of Inire
brunians at brunians.org · 01 Jul 2010, 13:08
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From: brunians at brunians.org (brunians at brunians.org) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 09:08:35 -0400 Subject: (urth) Appearances of Inire In-Reply-To: <4C2C8FD5.8090603 at verizon.net> References: <SNT123-W896FBC5C32F4238BC96E9CFCB0 at phx.gbl> <002f01cb180d$52a0c320$0cd24a0c@rclackey> <4C2B4F90.4040708 at gmail.com> <4C2B53AF.6040606 at gmail.com> <4C2B5CF2.3040202 at io.com> <4C2B71B3.5080308 at gmail.com> <91f2cc4d1aa001a130756f20182ad487.squirrel at webmail.prismnet.com> <AANLkTimqx0B689CjlqiByBD2fnbqDRLZG7vvjFYs0zQE at mail.gmail.com> <4C2C009C.4070402 at verizon.net> <1bd7b1bfeebd3535b788f654d9b3efd4.squirrel at brunians.org> <4C2C0586.7090503 at verizon.net> <487d2869bcbbd06452a6633012d86d83.squirrel at brunians.org> <4C2C06E3.4030806 at verizon.net> <1362277e8ba9279d24e4bc37d6ab862a.squirrel at brunians.org> <4C2C8387.5010304 at verizon.net> <AANLkTimVPuEiDXtuPejpVrcqVQUxust0ZazZ-9KU8-r6 at mail.gmail.com> <340be9ebf3b4dc0edced26c8b3c68291.squirrel at brunians.org> <4C2C8B97.3090405 at verizon.net> <AANLkTil1l6W2HVRXGn7IPuddhOoe60sXATFjBDVRUYhS at mail.gmail.com> <4C2C8FD5.8090603 at verizon.net> Message-ID: <07eb1d984df90956bc9d4f5cd894e709.squirrel at brunians.org> What the hell do you have in your pockets, anyway? . > Well argued. Extra points for use of Tolkien. > > Under #3, presumably, such a being might have enormous powers but feel > just as lost as humans. Under #1, such a being might feel significantly > more connected. > > One can see how a #3 being might more often go astray, even with good > intentions, while a #1 being might get carried away with how close to > the deity he sits and become jealous or rebellious, causing far more > damage. > > John Watkins wrote: >> Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in >> Christian and Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be /some /possible >> separation between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels >> wouldn't have been possible. It's my understanding that there are >> various interpretations of what this means even in our world, and in a >> consciously created myth it could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for >> instance, are not in constant communication with Illuvatar or anything >> like it and they make various errors of judgment. I don't think, >> however, that they ever lie or commit acts of intentional evil, except >> for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on one occasion). >> >> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff >> <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote: >> >> #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting "more or less" and >> using the words "infallible" and "definitely in direct contact." >> That would be more distinct. >> >> As I understand it. >> >> brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote: >> >> There is no meaningful difference between one and three. >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> Right. >> >> Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents >> himself not as >> the >> Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important >> question of the >> series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in >> fact three >> options: >> >> 1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less >> in direct >> contact >> with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be >> completely trusted and >> is >> a more or less incontrovertible moral authority. >> 2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. >> The >> pretentions >> of religion are a means of controlling the human race. >> 3) Tzadkiel is a "higher" being in some meaningful sense >> but remains >> metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in >> "The Cock and >> the >> Angel." His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do >> its will is >> sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best >> he/she can, but >> like >> the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and >> infinitely removed >> from >> the mind of the Increate. >> >> I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself. >> >> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff >> <dstockhoff at verizon.net >> <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>>wrote: >> >> >> >> No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a >> general theoretical >> observation. >> >> brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Who usurping where? >> >> Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider? >> Tzadkiel? >> >> I don't think so. >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> No, the definition of usurping demands it. So >> does the concept of a >> local archon pretending to be the Outsider. >> You can explain it any way >> you want, but that's the concept. >> >> Think Tolkien. >> >> brunians at brunians.org >> <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Maybe for you. >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The question, then, is whether such >> delegation occurred---or not. >> >> brunians at brunians.org >> <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't buy it. >> >> God delegates all the time. >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Precisely. >> >> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at >> 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson >> <jwilson at io.com >> <mailto:jwilson at io.com>> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeff Wilson wrote >> (30-06-2010 16:04): >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 6/30/2010 >> 9:24 AM, James >> Wynn wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> There's that thing >> about only God >> being creator. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> How is that relevant >> here? Do you prefer >> that people use >> "assemble" >> instead of "create"? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It's relevant because a >> race that creates a >> (slave) race is >> usurping >> the privilege of the >> Creator -- is in fact >> acting in daemonic >> manner. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Urth Mailing List >> To post, write urth at urth.net >> <mailto:urth at urth.net> >> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net >> <http://www.urth.net/> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Urth Mailing List >> To post, write urth at urth.net <mailto:urth at urth.net> >> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net >> <http://www.urth.net/> >> >> >> --- >> avast! 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Antivirus: Inbound message clean. >> Virus Database (VPS): 100630-1, 06/30/2010 >> Tested on: 7/1/2010 8:40:39 AM >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net > Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net >
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