Fr Inire + Cumean + others

David Stockhoff · 17 Jul 2010, 02:53 · from 2010-July.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 22:53:33 -0400
Subject: (urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others
In-Reply-To: <4C40EE07.7020106 at sky.com>
References: <SNT123-W236606DA930C3EC8833C4BCFBC0 at phx.gbl>
	<4C40EE07.7020106 at sky.com>
Message-ID: <4C411B2D.8050303 at verizon.net>

That explanation of the Cumaean makes an amazing amount of sense.

Jane Delawney wrote:
> Just a couple of quick thoughts.
>
> On 16/07/10 15:34, Lee Berman wrote:
>> I think it can matter a lot. Borski assumed Inire was a hierodule and 
>> consequently short-
>> lived and consequently only able to move backwards in time and 
>> consquently an obedient
>> servant of the hierogrammates, etc. He took his error (I believe it 
>> to be one
> I do too, I don't see the evidence for it. Borski relies entirely too 
> much on the alleged naming conventions IMO.
>> , though
>> Andre-Driussi doesn't) and ran so ridiculously far with it, he 
>> undercut much of the
>> credibility of his Solar Labyrinth book IMHO.
>>    
> agreed.
>> So, where does The Cumaean fit into the scheme of things? Borski 
>> casts her as sort of a
>> Mother Inire, a paired, parallel but less important than Inire 
>> hierodule character.
>> But she isn't tall and beautiful nor short-lived. Any others have 
>> thoughts on her?
>>    
> Regarding the Cumean, there seems to be an assumption (based primarily 
> upon the vision of her as a many eyed serpent during Sev's first 
> experience at the Stone Town) that she's an alien; that while the 
> Witches regard her as one of their own she's not human but a 
> representative (hierodule? Hierogrammate?) of the hieros upon Urth.
>
> I'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's 
> simply unnecessary.
> Sev's vision is entirely in accordance with the Hindu/Buddhist 
> cosmology Wolfe invokes in many places (manvantaras and all that) and 
> represents a vision of the 'Long Body' of an 'occult' initate ie. in 
> BOTNS terms, a witch. 'Long Body'? well, that would be the body of a 
> human or other living being seen from a four-dimensional POV; from 
> that POV your body, mine, everyone else's, would definitely seem many 
> eyed and snake-like!
>
> To elaborate: since Time is the fourth dimension, the 'body' appears 
> as  a snake-like form from the 'outside' as it were; from (perhaps) 
> the 'divine' point of view which Sev seems to achieve, momentarily, 
> during this experience. 'Divine'? Well maybe that's a bit tendentious. 
> 'Outside of the temporal universe' perhaps; Sev adverts to this point 
> of view a few times, stating that every being that has ever lived is 
> alive 'somewhere / when', and also asserting strenuously that he 
> believes his Autarchia, Valeria, is still alive ... *somewhere*. Yes 
> she is; from one who can perceive directly, or imagine, the temporal 
> universe from some place 'outside' time, she is alive indeed in her 
> own segment of the four-dimensional world. It's learning to jump into 
> and out of this world at the desired / destined points, that is the 
> real trick; learning to navigate the Corridors of Time, in other words.
>>
>> Perhaps Ossipago is worth discussing here. Borski thinks he is Inire. 
>> I don't. I think he
>> is one of the machines that humanity built which then created the 
>> hierogrammates. The phrase
>> "deus ex machina" is hinted at toward the end of Citadel and I've 
>> always liked how Ossipago's
>> role in the story fits both the literal and theatrical meaning of 
>> that phrase.
>>    
> I find I'm in disagreement not only with Borski, but with 
> Andre-Driussi about the three known and named Hierodules. Both seem to 
> assume that since Ossipago can be translated as 'bone grower', he, 
> although basically a mechanism, is the nurse / guardian of both 
> Famulimus and Barbatus. I think it makes far more sense in the context 
> of the New Sun opus that all three names have some relevance to a role 
> vs. Severian himself: Ossipago being the 'demigod' who oversees his 
> growth from babyhood; Barbatus the one who sees him through puberty 
> (Barbatus = name of minor Roman deity responsible for the sprouting of 
> the first beard of the adolescent boy) and Famulimus the one who keeps 
> him on the moral (as opposed to traditional) straight and narrow: the 
> famulimus is the Roman minor deity responsible for a person's  
> reputation, and s/he is presumably rooting for Sev as he makes the 
> very difficult decsion to go for basic good vs. evil morality rather 
> than for guild tradition (which kind of turns good and evil on their 
> heads in this context) as he grants mercy to Thecla at his own 
> future's expense (he had every reason as he did what he did to expect 
> that he  would be executed for his 'crime'; this is therefore a real 
> sacrifice of self for the greater good).
>
> don't know if any of this is of any interest, but I've been mulling 
> over the statements of the various commentators on all of these 
> questions and given the thread, this seemed a good place to comment.
>
> Again forgive me please for modifying the header a little, I really 
> really want to get my list posts sent back to me, and my ISP won't do 
> it unless I start a 'new' thread.
>
> regards
>
> JD
>
>
>
>
>>                           
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