Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a hierodule)

Craig Brewer · 17 Jul 2010, 14:10 · from 2010-July.txt.gz
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From: cnbrewer at yahoo.com (Craig Brewer)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:10:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: (urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a
	hierodule)
In-Reply-To: <4477017b4bd7a9b25bff66e2a867ecb0.squirrel at brunians.org>
References: <SNT123-W236606DA930C3EC8833C4BCFBC0 at phx.gbl>
	<4C40EE07.7020106 at sky.com>
	<38724.87433.qm at web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4477017b4bd7a9b25bff66e2a867ecb0.squirrel at brunians.org>
Message-ID: <241158.88242.qm at web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A) Awesome because the "simpler" example is obviously *way* more complex, as far 
as explanations go.

B) This is science fiction, and, in TBotNS, aliens quite obviously do exist.




----- Original Message ----
From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 8:56:16 AM
Subject: Re: (urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a hierodule)

>>I'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's  simply
>>unnecessary.
>
> Not criticizing the theory of the Cumean, but I just find it awesome that
> you invoke Occam's Razor to eliminate the possibility that she's an alien
> in favor of the vicissitudes of four-dimensional perception as related to
> Hindu/Buddhist cosmology.

(A) Why awesome, particularly?

(B) Your reaction is odd. No aliens are known to exist. Both
Hindu/Buddhist cosmology and four-dimensional perception exist.

.

>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 6:40:55 PM
> Subject: (urth) Fr Inire + Cumean + others (was: Re: Inire as a hierodule)
>
> Just a couple of quick thoughts.
>
> On 16/07/10 15:34, Lee Berman wrote:
>> I think it can matter a lot. Borski assumed Inire was a hierodule and
>>consequently short-
>> lived and consequently only able to move backwards in time and
>> consquently an
>>obedient
>> servant of the hierogrammates, etc. He took his error (I believe it to
>> be one
> I do too, I don't see the evidence for it. Borski relies entirely too much
> on
> the alleged naming conventions IMO.
>> , though
>> Andre-Driussi doesn't) and ran so ridiculously far with it, he undercut
>> much of
>>the
>> credibility of his Solar Labyrinth book IMHO.
>>
> agreed.
>> So, where does The Cumaean fit into the scheme of things? Borski casts
>> her as
>>sort of a
>> Mother Inire, a paired, parallel but less important than Inire hierodule
>>character.
>> But she isn't tall and beautiful nor short-lived. Any others have
>> thoughts on
>>her?
>>
> Regarding the Cumean, there seems to be an assumption (based primarily
> upon the
> vision of her as a many eyed serpent during Sev's first experience at the
> Stone
> Town) that she's an alien; that while the Witches regard her as one of
> their own
> she's not human but a representative (hierodule? Hierogrammate?) of the
> hieros
> upon Urth.
>
> I'm inclined to disagree with this, invoking Occam's Razor; it's simply
> unnecessary.
> Sev's vision is entirely in accordance with the Hindu/Buddhist cosmology
> Wolfe
> invokes in many places (manvantaras and all that) and represents a vision
> of the
> 'Long Body' of an 'occult' initate ie. in BOTNS terms, a witch. 'Long
> Body'?
> well, that would be the body of a human or other living being seen from a
> four-dimensional POV; from that POV your body, mine, everyone else's,
> would
> definitely seem many eyed and snake-like!
>
> To elaborate: since Time is the fourth dimension, the 'body' appears as  a
> snake-like form from the 'outside' as it were; from (perhaps) the 'divine'
> point
> of view which Sev seems to achieve, momentarily, during this experience.
> 'Divine'? Well maybe that's a bit tendentious. 'Outside of the temporal
> universe' perhaps; Sev adverts to this point of view a few times, stating
> that
> every being that has ever lived is alive 'somewhere / when', and also
> asserting
> strenuously that he believes his Autarchia, Valeria, is still alive ...
> *somewhere*. Yes she is; from one who can perceive directly, or imagine,
> the
> temporal universe from some place 'outside' time, she is alive indeed in
> her own
> segment of the four-dimensional world. It's learning to jump into and out
> of
> this world at the desired / destined points, that is the real trick;
> learning to
> navigate the Corridors of Time, in other words.
>>
>> Perhaps Ossipago is worth discussing here. Borski thinks he is Inire. I
>> don't.
>>I think he
>> is one of the machines that humanity built which then created the
>>hierogrammates. The phrase
>> "deus ex machina" is hinted at toward the end of Citadel and I've always
>> liked
>>how Ossipago's
>> role in the story fits both the literal and theatrical meaning of that
>> phrase.
>>
> I find I'm in disagreement not only with Borski, but with Andre-Driussi
> about
> the three known and named Hierodules. Both seem to assume that since
> Ossipago
> can be translated as 'bone grower', he, although basically a mechanism, is
> the
> nurse / guardian of both Famulimus and Barbatus. I think it makes far more
> sense
> in the context of the New Sun opus that all three names have some
> relevance to a
> role vs. Severian himself: Ossipago being the 'demigod' who oversees his
> growth
> from babyhood; Barbatus the one who sees him through puberty (Barbatus =
> name of
> minor Roman deity responsible for the sprouting of the first beard of the
> adolescent boy) and Famulimus the one who keeps him on the moral (as
> opposed to
> traditional) straight and narrow: the famulimus is the Roman minor deity
> responsible for a person's  reputation, and s/he is presumably rooting for
> Sev
> as he makes the very difficult decsion to go for basic good vs. evil
> morality
> rather than for guild tradition (which kind of turns good and evil on
> their
> heads in this context) as he grants mercy to Thecla at his own future's
> expense
> (he had every reason as he did what he did to expect that he  would be
> executed
> for his 'crime'; this is therefore a real sacrifice of self for the
> greater
> good).
>
> don't know if any of this is of any interest, but I've been mulling over
> the
> statements of the various commentators on all of these questions and given
> the
> thread, this seemed a good place to comment.
>
> Again forgive me please for modifying the header a little, I really really
> want
> to get my list posts sent back to me, and my ISP won't do it unless I
> start a
> 'new' thread.
>
> regards
>
> JD
>
>
>
>
>>
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