Boatman as Inire

John Watkins · 09 Aug 2010, 12:56 · from 2010-August.txt.gz

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From: john.watkins04 at gmail.com (John Watkins)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 08:56:45 -0400
Subject: (urth) Boatman as Inire
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W3F3DCB2111723AADF2A7BCF940 at phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W3F3DCB2111723AADF2A7BCF940 at phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinp4h+nVyL4GdUgFGJW8wjiOe5s+Wc2r2=s+8TP at mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

>

I guess I am reaching beyond your interpretation of the text but I don't
> see anything wrong with that. Why should there be an end to expansion of
> current
> modes of thought when I, and others, find them incomplete and
> unsatisfactory?
>
> I think your 4-D thinking is off in interpreting the "History" of the
> Universe.
> Yes, the Hierogrammates escaped to Yesod and all that the Hieros created
> was
> destroyed in the death of the previous universe. But the universe lower
> than
> Yesod is Briah. Thus "history" of the destruction of Briah is actually far
> in
> Urth/Ushas's future. Any failed Hierogrammates would be trapped in Briah
> which
> is what I think we could be seeing in Inire and the Cumaean.
>
> I think you have this wrong.  Very wrong, in fact.  Briah is not the lower
universe that the Hierogrammates escaped from.  It is a lower universe being
farmed by the Hierogrammates following the death of their original
universe.  Apheta is very clear that the Hierogrammates were created by a
race "cognate" to Severian's and confirms his impression that this occurred
in a previous manvantara.


> Ushas is created because it is a necessary stage in the creation of
> Hierogrammates,
> yes?


No, it's a necessary step for the creation of Hieros.  The Yesod
Hierogrammates are trying to recreate the race that created them, but not
their literal, temporal percursors (call those the "Yesod Hieros.")  They
are trying to breed Briah Hieros and then use them in some manner to escape
Yesod to a higher universe yet.

If the Briah Hieros then go on to produce Briah Hierogrammates, that's
inconsequential to the Yesod Hierogrammates--they will be long gone.  It
does seem to be Apheta's assumption that the cycle would continue and that
Briah Hieros would produce Briah Hierogrammates.  But it isn't actually
important to the Hierogrammates' goals.


> Each race creates the other. Thus Hierogrammates must be created in the
> future of Ushas (Hieros are green men maybe?). That's how I currently see
> it.
>
> Not "*must* be."  "*May* be."  The Hierogrammates are seeking to
effectuate this future, and Severian apparently helps them to do so.  But it
is not a necessary future, at least on Urth, as Master Ash confirms.


> I think Borski has proposed that Mother Cumaean and Father Inire are the
> parents
> of Barbatus and Famulimus. I prefer your idea that they are older, messed
> up
> versions...in your view, any chance they could, in fact, BE older, bent
> versions
> of Barbatus and Famulimus?
>
> Not directed to me, but there is no reason to make this assumption.  I
think it is far more likely that the are the same sort of beings extended in
life beyond what is natural for their kinds.


> For me, simple aging is not enough explanation. Their personalities and
> speech
> patterns and behavior are different also. Such a common SF trope that the
> good
> superior interstellar beings remain above the fray, while the bad ones get
> personally involved and take sides and set themselves up as minor gods
> among
> the primitives.  I suppose it could be argued that long residence on Urth
> has
> corrupted their behavior as well as their physical appearance. But is just
> another
> way of saying they are fallen versions of the angelic hierodules.
>
> There is also a trope of the "good" fallen angel--a higher being whose sin,
as it were, is caring too much about the lowly humans it is charged with
overseeing.  Captain Kirk's willy-nilly disregard of Prime Directive comes
to mind, as does the Doctor and Uatu the Watcher (oh, and Zauriel...and
arguably the Green Lantern...the Silver Surfer...I could go on, although I'm
hesistant in ascribing comic book inspiration to Wolfe unless there's a
specific connection to look to.)


>
>
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