Dionysus

David Stockhoff · 29 Nov 2010, 13:38 · from 2010-November.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 08:38:43 -0500
Subject: (urth) Dionysus
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W65E4D30A43F274226A5052CF240 at phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W65E4D30A43F274226A5052CF240 at phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4CF3ACE3.4020105 at verizon.net>

All good points, and I have no doubt that either Severian's universe or 
its mechanics or its "worship" of him, or all, are gnostic in pattern or 
design. But I don't see how anyone could twist Islam into gnosticism. 
That would conflate opposites: there is nothing at all gnostic about Islam.

However, I can see how gnosticism could be a type of paganism, in the 
sense that it is misdirected worship of the Increate. Possibly Wolfe 
considers Islam to be slightly off---perhaps unsurprisingly.

Following that logic, we could interpret the four gods primarily not as 
gnostic pairs---though they are---but as gods. That is, as powers such 
as Thor and Odin who are real but not God. Gnosticism would be a belief 
that the true God lies behind the earthly powers.

As, perhaps, God could be generally described at all times and in all 
universes.

On 11/29/2010 8:06 AM, Lee Berman wrote:
>
> In conclusion, I think the presence of Dionysus' millenia-long worship does
> provide a significant enough basis for a secret underpinning to understanding
> of the Sun series. More and more this seems to me like a gnostic universe that
> Wolfe has created.
>
> I was struck by how Jeff Wilson's recent description of his beliefs was similar to the
> gnostic concept of The One, the deity who is the Lord of All Opposites. Paired light and
> dark, creation and destruction, masculine and feminine, etc. The more I read of gnosticism
> the more I find its concepts peppered through the Sun Series: The Green Man, Ouroboros,
> The Abraxas, Amphisboena, Quadraf(r)ons/Janus etc.
>
> In a recent discussion of whether there was a Christ in the Sun universe, Andrew Mason
> noted the mention of Alla as a name for The Outsider. I wonder if this is a sly way for
> Wolfe to suggest that Islam is following a gnostic-style of worship of God. Andrew also
> notes that there is a story which seems to be about Jesus. Andrew has only a minor quibble
> with the description that the Jesus character was possessed by The Outsider as he did his
> thing. I'm thinking this deviant view of the Jesus-figure is meant by Wolfe to suggest this
> is not really our Jesus in the story but a gnostic version.
>
> Perhaps the final evidence of this view is found at the very end of BotNS. In the denouement,
> after all the mechinations of an angelic race living in a Kabbalistic universe, after all the
> cosmic upheavals, we are not left with  a monotheistic, savior-worshipping Christian planet.
> Ushas has four gods, two light, two dark, two male, two female. A very gnostic finale, I think. 		 	   		
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