Dionysus

David Stockhoff · 29 Nov 2010, 16:03 · from 2010-November.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 11:03:07 -0500
Subject: (urth) Dionysus
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Well, it all depends on what mythology arises from the four. The 
Persians and Egyptians all faced this dilemma: that of many legendary 
powers of whom only one is True. Which one? But even that One is not 
True, in the case of Severian, because he was born a mortal. (Not a 
problem for the Greeks or, apparently, the Ushans---just a problem for 
those of us who imagine God as a platonic ideal who has never been to 
Earth.)

Was Apollo at least a true facet of God? The same for Odin? I think 
Wolfe thinks so, because he has said he believes they are real---but 
that doesn't necessarily mean they are false gods, i.e., demons of some 
kind. If they are facets or misperceptions of God, as even Abiaia may be 
a reflection of the Increate, then it all works out.

Gnosticism is a logical result of the (Hindu) belief that the material 
world hides the real world. It could be seen as deeply paranoid, or as 
common sense.

OTOH, pagans believe that everything they see is a god. From a Christian 
perspective, this is only half true: for at least some of them, 
everything they see is God. (For others, everything they see is 
wickedness and not-God, which is where gnosticism sneaks in.) It's a 
matter of opinion, then, as to which half is the more important one.

On 11/29/2010 10:26 AM, Lee Berman wrote:
> Thanks David. I acknowledge not being especially facile with religious
> philosophy and I appreciate any and all help I can get.
>
>> David Stockhoff- But I don't see how anyone could twist Islam into gnosticism.
>> That would conflate opposites: there is nothing at all gnostic about Islam.
>> However, I can see how gnosticism could be a type of paganism, in the
>> sense that it is misdirected worship of the Increate. Possibly Wolfe
>> considers Islam to be slightly off---perhaps unsurprisingly.
>
> Yes, I have overused the adjective "gnostic" where I really am meaning "false".
> Islam, as currently praticed by most, seems to be a very monotheisitic religion
> though (inevitably, given its geography) it seems to have a tradition of angels and
> demons (djinn) in parallel to Judeo-Christianity.
>
> Yes, wiccan and paganism are what I'd call European versions of gnosticism but I've
> found elements of it in Middle East religions of Zoroastrianism, Sufi Islam, Druse,
> Yazidi, ..there are probably others I haven't encountered. I don't know if I'm using
> the right terminology. Hard to concisely discuss such a diverse "religion" which has
> never been codified under the auspice of one central church, I guess.
>
>> Following that logic, we could interpret the four gods primarily not as
>> gnostic pairs---though they are---but as gods. That is, as powers such
>> as Thor and Odin who are real but not God. Gnosticism would be a belief
>> that the true God lies behind the earthly powers.
>
> Hm. I have been deficient in mentioning the Norse mythology references in the Sun series.
> They have been in mind but I've been trying to be brief rather than sprawling in my posts.
> I think Urth as the name of the Norn of the Past is important. And the half-blind, black
> bird Odin imagery we see in Silkhorn. And perhaps Fenrir as a wolfean inspiration for
> Fr.Inire's name (without neglecting Faunus/Inuus, heh).
>
> I concur regarding the theme of human and superhuman powers (including Severian) being
> confused with God/worshipped as gods. But I wonder what message Wolfe is sending with his
> gods of Ushas. Three of the four gods are not powers but quite ordinary people, two servants
> and a (possible) prostitute. (okay, maybe a khaibit is not quite ordinary but surely not a
> "power".) 		 	   		
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