Dionysus
James Wynn · 07 Dec 2010, 04:20
· from 2010-December.txt.gz
This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything
here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer
encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the
archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those
repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is
for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site,
so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.
From: crushtv at gmail.com (James Wynn) Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 22:20:01 -0600 Subject: (urth) Dionysus In-Reply-To: <008201cb951f$75f36000$b1d04a0c@rclackey> References: <SNT123-W20BDD61602D74BCB083B52CF250 at phx.gbl> <4CF539F4.8020009 at gmail.com><00bc01cb9123$0844ca80$c7d24a0c@rclackey> <4CF65AB8.1020803 at gmail.com><761933AF32AE497CA230737B669A6999@jill> <4CF6832E.2030509 at gmail.com> <9E60582E6CBB4D9492830BD6024C7A5E@jill><4CF803BA.7010406 at gmail.com> <4CF9BE63.2010900 at sky.com><66B6396492E34CF9AFA0336A19B41875@jill> <4CFAC339.9060900 at gmail.com><65D94824C7E148869B57AC76EC64526B@jill><4CFAD855.3050200 at gmail.com> <A5059297D2A84745B534CC028F5237CF@jill> <008201cb951f$75f36000$b1d04a0c@rclackey> Message-ID: <4CFDB5F1.1000704 at gmail.com> > Gerry Quinn- > But something happens at the end, after the inhumi attack the church. > Up to now there has been this person who appears to be Horn in Silk's > body, although at some point we go from first to third person (no > point that appears special, though). Then suddenly something happens > and the text decribes him as Silk, as if Remora's mention of hyacinths > had brought him back.If a Neighbour spirit is somehow animating Silk's > body, what's happening here? > Roy C. Lackey wrote- > That isn't the only problem this theory creates. > It calls into question everything that happened after the pit, > which extends to the whole manuscript written by Silkhorn. > For one, it puts a different spin on everthing Silkhorn had to say about > the Neighbors. If Silkhorn was actually a Neighbor, then he knew perfectly > well their natural state of being, where they went when they left Blue, > what god(s) they worshipped, etc. He had no need to wonder about any of > the questions about Neighbors he wondered about; he would or should have > known the answers. Again, the Rajan is not merely a Neighbor in human disguise. I understand why this is so hard to keep this in mind because it was a concept that was controversially debated in the development of the doctrine of the Trinity. The Rajan is 100% Silk -- as surely as Typhon is present in the Whorl in the person of Pas (and Wolfe has adamantly asserted that Typhon genuinely is), Silk is present in the Rajan. But he is 100% the Neighbor as well. And to some extent, --or perhaps to the full extent if the Neighbor has 100% recall, as is maybe implied-- he is 100% Horn (because Horn is present to the extent that the Neighbor remembers Horn's memories). Anyway, the Neighbor was apparently not fully conscious--only subconsciously aware-- of his Neighbor-nature until the end of the story, at the end of his conversation with Remora (there are various other reasons for this that I get into below). Other examples of this in Wolfe's are writings are 1) the chapter The Alzabo in Sword of the Lictor in which Wolfe demonstrates how the animal instincts and the souls inhabiting it support each other's instincts. 2) Another very important example is Mani the cat in The Wizard Knight, an talking cat created by a witch by binding an immortal elemental spirit to a cat. Mani and Able have a conversation about what will happen when Mani dies: "Will I really be free when the cat dies? You said something about that [snip] That I'll be an elemental once more. ' 'No, you won't.' 'The elemental will be free, no longer having any share in life. You're not the elemental or the cat. You're both, and the cat will die like other cats.' 'I'd like to think I'm just...the other thing. The thing that talks.' 'Then I'll cut off your ear and we'll see if it hurts.' 'You would, wouldn't you?' " [The Wizard HB 307] Earlier Mani says, "Once I was a free spirit. Once I was a normal cat not troubled by lies. [snip] The first is the finest of existences, the second the finest of lives. I have lost both." Mani the cat was neither the cat nor the elemental spirit, but something new from their joining. Mani didn't drone on and on as an all-wise immortal spirit. Or regale others about his non-life as an elemental. Because he didn't...couldn't remember it. At least not consciously, most of the time. There was that time at the meeting with the Neighbors however: " 'My name is Horn.' I offered my hand. He took it, and this time I felt his hand _and remembered it_ . It was hard, and seemed to be covered with short, stiff hairs. Beyond that I will not say."[oBW HB 272] So while the Rajan knows a lot about the Neighbors because he is likely in communication with them, and talks to the inhumi on his staff, and might have subconscious memories about them, and for all those reasons can make educated guesses about them -- it is not expected that he would KNOW--at least not until the end of RttW. In summation, it is a mistake to think of the Rajan as a Neighbor who happens to have access to databases of Silk's and Horn's memories. He is something new. Wolfe deliberately keeps _what he is_ rather ambivalent, probably because it is impossible to define precisely. He is a being driven to complete Horn's mission, as Horn was. He is driven by guilt for having caused Horn's death. He is driven by resentment toward Sinew for having killed him and regret for that resentment. Horn, the Neighbor, and Silk, all bear a sense of self-loathing for different reasons. Each is driven by a sense of longing for a woman and for two the loss cannot be healed because Hyacinth is dead and Horn is dead. I think the sense of dissatisfaction at the end of the story is that we don't really know what drives the Rajan anymore. I think I know, but that's another theory. u+16b9 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20101206/05ebe91e/attachment-0001.htm>
An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net