Father Inire Theory cont.

David Stockhoff · 10 Dec 2010, 22:57 · from 2010-December.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 17:57:58 -0500
Subject: (urth) Father Inire Theory cont.
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W567526828D788E1E75EC75CF2F0 at phx.gbl>
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Message-ID: <4D02B076.5040200 at verizon.net>



On 12/10/2010 5:23 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
>> David Stockhoff- It's possible that you don't know enough to see the value in distinctions between them.
>
> Yes, I admit that. On the other hand it's possible you know too much of them and as Andrew and Dan'l suggest,
> requiring me to distinguish them in every mention would wear out my slash button, already worn out from
> Pan/Dionysus/Faunus stuff. Sorry if I sound frazzled. I am. It is a lot of effort for me to convert complex
> mental images into brief, concise verbal constructions. All while at work. Sheesh. Also, okay, on Abaddon-hell
> issue.

You're doing all this at work? No wonder! ;)
>> Tzadkiel's largest form (that we see) is described as big as an island. Erebus and Abaia are a bit smaller,
>> being only the size of mountains.
> David- I don't understand.
>
> In the first four books we see an island-sized Tzadkiel in the Mirror Bookknow. We know there are large
> creatures in the sea as large as mountains and we know of undines and somehow Wolfe was expecting us to deduce
> far too much about what was going on. So he wrote UotNS and showed us Tzadkiel and his ship. (maybe there is an
> even bigger, planet-sized Tzadkiel that we don't see, who knows).
>
> Severian notes that Father Inire's portals resemble Tzadkiel's but are inferior. To me this says what happens on
> Tzadkiel's ship for an angel is what happens on Urth for fallen angels, but inferior. Tzadkiel is able to
> break off pieces of himself in varying sizes, shapes, species and genders. So the fallen angels on Urth can
> do the same but in an inferior way.
OK. I see that as a huge leap, assuming unrelated abilities to be 
parallel, but now I see why you think Inire can be a shapeshifter. If 
there are angels in BotNS (never to be doubted) and fallen ones as well, 
then the abilities of the fallen ones must be perverse imitations of the 
original. I just assumed they are different species, but that's me.

What then is the corresponding ability in Inire, as far as splitting off?
>   
>> Sure, but you said Erebus controls Inire. Who controls the Devil, or the Serpent, or Lucifer? No one.
>> You need to set up a model and stick to it.
> I don't understand. Tzadkiel has pieces of himself running around in various shapes and sizes doing his will.
> Abaia/Erebus also. One is Father Inire. Please don't demand exact, specified descriptions of mental constructs
> of things Gene Wolfe has left purposefully incomprehensible (as superhuman beings must be). It isn't fair. I can't
> make my theory fit your views and everyone else's. Hard enough to get my own ideas out.
If you make a reference to a known thing in the real world, sooner or 
later you must consider its particulars. If I say I know a man with one 
eye like Odin, I don't need to prove other correspondences. But that's a 
comparison.

OTOH, if I say a man is Odin, he must have a crow on his shoulder as well.

I'm pointing out to you that none of the figures of the Devil is the 
servant of another, except maybe God. So any Inire = Devil, Erebus = 
Master of the Devil connection just doesn't wash, unless Erebus is God.
>> The Cumaean is a possibility for fallenness, but then who is she? Is she also the Devil? Is she Inire?
>
> A very good question. I don't know but my theory allows for two possibilities. Mythologically, she could be
> like a sister to Inire. One of Inire's agents resemble Charon, son of Erebus and Night.  Noctua is the daughter
> of Abaia/Erebus and Night in the story. If she is meant to be more of a Gnostic symbol she is the female aspect
> of the multi-faced, hermaprohoditic, lord of all opposites, Dionysus/Great God Pan. So, in this case more like a
> part of Father Inire. who can tell anyway with superhuman creatures who can reproduce both sexually and asexually.
> They are, at the end of the day, incomprehensible to us.
>
> Again, I have to point out that the Devil is always unitary---always 
> alone. He has no sister.


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