christ, already

Craig Brewer · 15 Dec 2010, 23:51 · from 2010-December.txt.gz

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From: cnbrewer at yahoo.com (Craig Brewer)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 15:51:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: (urth) christ, already
In-Reply-To: <E48574B6-AFEB-4B63-9816-03692C5FCE27 at liftingfaces.com>
References: <997798.2239.qm at web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<E48574B6-AFEB-4B63-9816-03692C5FCE27 at liftingfaces.com>
Message-ID: <635563.10431.qm at web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I get the point about the Outsider being "God" but not "Christ" in the sense 
that the Outsider didn't deliver the sermon on the mount or actually be the body 
that died on the cross, etc.

But isn't there a bigger point here that the Outsider is the Outsider. "It" is 
the "real" God outside of man-made mythology. We can assume that it's ultimately 
the God of Christianity because of what we know of Wolfe, and, textually, 
because of its close association with Kypris/love/etc. and because of what *we* 
know those thematic relationships suggest to non-fictional theology outside of 
the made-up world in the books.

But, in the book, I always assumed that the real point of having the Outsider be 
called very deliberately "the Outsider" was that its actual nature remains 
largely unknown and mysterious, even to Silk after his vision. The books stress 
how difficult gnosis can be to come to terms with, even after direct revelation. 
Silk continually misunderstands the nature of the Outsider throughout the books, 
still trying to understand it through the "dark glass" of Pas' cobbled-together 
mythology at times, even as he learns how false that mythology actually is. At 
no point is Silk given a Bible in which he can read the gospels, etc. in any way 
that makes the identification of the Outsider as God/Holy Spirit/Christ really 
meaningful within the world of the book.

In Long Sun, the Outsider is the real God, sure, but none of the characters ever 
really understands what that means in the same way that Wolfe might believe he 
understands it. That truth remains difficult and distant even after revelation 
seems to be much the point of the books.

So I'll stick with calling it the Outsider.

________________________________
From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 5:38:34 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already

In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, Christ and God are 
explicit, though part of the Holy Trinity. God is within Christ, and Christ 
symbolizes God. And God created the symbol.

Something about symbols inventing us echoes in my mind.

:)

...ryan

On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:48 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

Hey, you're the one who said Outsider=Christ.
>
>
>And no, Christians do not "use Christ interchangeably with God." Even I know 
>that.
>
>--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>>Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
>>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:35 PM
>>
>>
>>Are you forgetting the tripartite nature of Christ?
>>The Father, The son, and The Holy Ghost.  Christ is an aspect of God and is used 
>>by Christians interchangeably with God.
>>
>>On Dec 15, 2010, at 1:20 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>I'd say Outsider=God was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.
>>>
>>>--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>>>>Subject: Re: (urth) christ, already
>>>>To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 4:12 PM
>>>>I don't know about Dionysus. I need to read those again, but I thought that 
>>>>Outsider=Christ was about as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.
>>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
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