The Outsider

Son of Witz · 16 Dec 2010, 19:46 · from 2010-December.txt.gz

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From: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org (Son of Witz)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 11:46:23 -0800
Subject: (urth) The Outsider
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimTMkRogjDAnsm4pQi72M42e71CciOYqzhYGhX5 at mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimTMkRogjDAnsm4pQi72M42e71CciOYqzhYGhX5 at mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7BFF452F-F078-472F-9E37-324EF0E47E3B at butcherbaker.org>



On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:29 AM, Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> wrote:

> Wow! How did that happen? Rather than trace my way through the
> discussion and reply to each bit separately, I'll just try to state my
> view as a whole.
> 
> I think the Outsider is God, i.e. the God of Christianity  or, more
> generally, of the Abrahamic faiths, also known on Urth as the
> Increate. As evidence for this one could mention:
> The Jesus references, both in Silk's visions (the man riding through a
> city whetre people are waving palm leaves, the criminal on the
> scaffold) and in what's already known about the Outsider in the Whorl
> (the beating of the traders in animals).
> The suggested identification with Ah Lah.
> The identification with the 'maker' in the Pajarocu story.
> The claim that according to a doubtful story he was the original
> creator of humans,.
> The statement that he was worshipped on the Short Sun Whorl (i.e. Urth).
> I'm inclined to add his apparent power to raise the dead.
> 
> I don't think we can say precisely either that he is the Father or
> that he is Christ. From an out-of-story perspective, if we are
> Christians, we can say that he is the Trinity, but of course no one in
> the story thinks of him that way. Some of the things said of him may
> be more applicable to Christ. and some to  the Father - or indeed to
> the Holy Spirit. (One of the voices which Silk hears is 'cooing')
> 
> I think it's clear there is an analogue of Christianity within the
> _Sun_ world. The references are copious; there are crosses, not just
> Dorcas's rood, but Ctesiphon's cross and the Sign of Addition - which
> is not the same as the voided cross, Pas's symbol, and is hinted to be
> the Outsider's symbol. (Also the red sign of addition as a medical
> symbol!) Names of saints; the paschal candle; the Angelus; rituals
> involving bread and wine; what look like direct quotations from
> scripture, for instance Marble's reference in OBW to 'the sign from
> the belly of the fish'. This could be explained in various ways:
> that Jesus is actually present within that universe.
> that there is an analogue of Jesus, who is merely a prophet.
> that the stories have somehow been transmitted from another universe.
> But I don't think the first is ruled out. Even if it is a past
> iteration of the universe, the Son of God may have been incarnated in
> it. Even if the idea of multiple incarnations multiple universes  is
> not strictly Orthodox Christianity, it's not wild and beyond the pale.
> It's the basis of the Narnia series, and Lewis is generally seen as
> pretty orthodox. I don't see anything to make me say 'This is a
> universe without Christ' - though at the time the events take place,
> it's certainly a universe where Christ is not _known_.
> 
> Now, it is certainly true that a link is drawn between the Outsider
> and Dionysus. But I don't see that as negating the connection with the
> Christian God, but as suggesting a connection between the Christian
> God and Dionysus - a connection which others (Lewis and Soyinka, at
> least) have drawn, and which, therefore, can't be ruled out.
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Yes.
Frankly this all seems so fundamentally unambiguous that I can't even believe anyone doesn't see it like this.

~witz

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