(no subject)

David Stockhoff · 17 Dec 2010, 01:13 · from 2010-December.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 20:13:10 -0500
Subject: (urth) (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=CyXNNMfL7hiP2KoTFFr-14dvR0r7OWoQfbpAm at mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT123-W16D08B9FE0ACA25CE25D62CF140 at phx.gbl>	<4D35F4794AE94278BA718E442C77D355@jill>	<4D0A45DC.80902 at verizon.net>	<9584549FDDAE461C89DC49B5A1F65AA7@jill>	<4D0A625A.5060807 at verizon.net>	<424AF04E-D90A-4970-B6D1-E0E4DB231B05 at butcherbaker.org>	<4D0A655E.2000708 at verizon.net>	<7BBB17B2-BC8A-48B9-AB2B-FF56AA024D0C at butcherbaker.org>	<4D0A917D.4000200 at verizon.net>
	<AANLkTi=CyXNNMfL7hiP2KoTFFr-14dvR0r7OWoQfbpAm at mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D0AB926.3050804 at verizon.net>

As I thought, my distinction was one without much difference.

In any case, in my understanding grace was retroactively applied to good 
pagans, and the question of the orthodoxy of this application is 
probably open.

On 12/16/2010 5:36 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:
> If I may (as one who does theology from time to time)...
>
> I'm trying to understand the sense in which David is using the term 
> "grace".  I find it difficult to separate from the concept of 
> salvation, because salvation is only possible through grace.  In other 
> words, it is by the grace of God that we are saved, not through any 
> striving of our own (although obviously we need to respond to that 
> grace in some way).
>
> Christians believe that salvation comes only through Jesus Christ.  
> This is not to say that Jews, Muslims, virtuous pagans, etc cannot be 
> saved; it is, however, to say that whether they are aware of it or 
> not, it is Jesus who saves them.  Salvation consists in being freed 
> from the just consequences of our sins, due to the sacrifice of Christ 
> on the cross.  We are no longer subject to punishment for our 
> misdeeds, because Another has taken that punishment on our behalf.  
> The word "grace" denotes that this is a gift, not something we are 
> expected to earn; our good works are not a means of winning this gift, 
> but a natural response of gratitude--you could say "thank-you notes to 
> God" if it doesn't make you want to throw up.  (NB : I am aware that 
> ultramontane Catholicism and five-point Calvinism alike will find 
> points of disagreement in this paragraph)
>
> Grace in the Christian sense doesn't seem to have existed before 
> Christ's passion and resurrection.  The Torah seems to embody an 
> accountant's approach to morality, with each transgression appearing 
> in the debit column and requiring the sacrifice of a corresponding 
> asset.  In comparison, the sacrifice of Christ is a general debt 
> amnesty, a super-Jubilee if you will.
>
> I hope this clarifies rather than muddies.  If the latter case 
> obtains, feel free to ignore!
>
>


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