Spiritual and Ecological Sucession

Jordon Flato · 11 Jan 2011, 22:35 · from 2011-January.txt.gz

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From: jordonflatourth at gmail.com (Jordon Flato)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 14:35:25 -0800
Subject: (urth) Spiritual and Ecological Sucession
In-Reply-To: <4DE78877-F939-4A13-A332-5C9FA5AEFD14 at butcherbaker.org>
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I'm just saying, if you are going to be literal about stuff (being a bit
cheeky here to be sure), then Ushas is the name of Urth after the flood.
 That is plain and clear, and unambiguous.  IF we are being literal.  And
therefore, if you are making a literal connection, I think the only real way
to phrase it would be Green is Ushas.


Of course, I'm being precious here, because no disrespect to Marc, I can't
swallow even the smallest part of Urth being Green or Green being Urth in a
literal sense.

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>wrote:

>
>
> On Jan 11, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Jordon Flato <jordonflatourth at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> But that's not Urth, that's Ushas.  The green man lives on Ushas, not Urth.
>  So if Wolfe was giving a literal answer to a literal puzzle he was either
> lazy, or wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> So there.
>
>
> Hmm.
> I don't see much difference in Urth and Ushas. Either is just a cultural
> name for the same thing.
> Fair enough though. I'm not at all convinced that Green is Urth. In fact I
> think it is not.
>
> Still...
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Son of Witz <<Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 11, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Jordon Flato < <jordonflatourth at gmail.com>
>> jordonflatourth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Son of Witz <<Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org><Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>> Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> People keep getting it wrong.
>>> Wolfe wrote to Marc, "No, No, No, Green is Urth"
>>> NOT "Urth is Green"
>>>
>>> But Wolfe DIDN'T say "Green is Ushas", which to me would have made it
>> harder to discount it as anything other than a nod toward a literal
>> solution.  He said Green is Urth.  This sets up in my brain in a purely
>> symbolic/metaphoric resonance.
>>
>> If Green is Urth (and hey, we're being literal here, so let's not get
>> cheeky with this Urth/Ushas are the same thing crap) then Green would have
>> to been in Severian's past, pre Ushas conversion.  And that, to me, seems
>> completely impossible, unsupported, and just doesn't make sense.
>>
>> Urth becomes Ushas.  It does not remain Urth.
>>
>> So if Green is Urth, to me this sets up a clear metaphor that Green is a
>> symbol of what Urth would have become without a flood.  A world ruled by
>> monsters, taken over by survival of the fittest, and left to rot and decay
>> in it's own filth.  Sure it's lush, but it's a lushness of hell.  So, yes,
>> clearing the sewers is a highly resonant act to Severian bringing the flood.
>>
>> And Blue has a number of thematic resonances with Ushas.  So Wolfe has set
>> up a great system for us where he can play with the symbolic consequences of
>> a Urth without Flood (Green) and an Urth with flood (Blue).
>>
>> At least that's what strikes me in the moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> But UR wrong! And stupidly inferior!
>>
>> Just kidding.
>> I like this. The idea of twin planets, with and without deluge is very
>> interesting.
>>
>> It is possible that Green is some wild future of Urth where the pondscum
>> in the Green Men took them over, brought their consciousness into the plant
>> consciousness and made canibalistic flora. And It is possible that planets
>> could be moved around, for whatever reason, swapping Blue for Lune, and it's
>> possible that the Whorl was gone for waaaaaay long and is essentially a new
>> ark.  But the book gives us NONE of that.
>>
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