Digest urth.v026.n008

Alex David Groce · 01 May 1999, 12:48 · from urth-v0026.mbox · original
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From: "Alex David Groce" <adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: (urth) Re:  Digest urth.v026.n008
Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:48:51
Message-ID: <urth-v0026-0077 at digest.urth.net>
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On Apr 30,  5:48pm, Kieran Mullen wrote:
> Subject: (urth) Re:  Digest urth.v026.n008
>=20
> >From: "Ori Kowarsky" <orik at sprint.ca>
> >Subject: Re: (urth) Are TBOTNS and UOTNS Christian Texts?
> >Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:45:04 -0700
>=20
>=20
> >I think we're talking to cross-purposes here.  The fact that bits and pi=
eces
> >of the Christian story crop up in TBOTNS may mean nothing more than that
> >Christianity was once part of the culture, once informed its myths and
> >legends, and still remains in the form of a half -remembered cultural
> >substrate.  If by "theological overtones" you mean that physical miracles
> >are happening, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
>=20
>    Hmm... resurrection from the dead, miraculous healing.  Seems like a
> few miracles to me. =20
>=20
> >> The question is, does the BOTNS necessarily mean Christianity has
> >>completely failed in Urth?  Well, as far as being a clearly present
religion,
> >>yes.  However, the church invisible, as I understand it, can continue e=
ven
> >>if the visible church has vanished--and as I see it, the patterning of
> >Severian's
>=20
> >I'm sorry, I don't know what "the church invisible" is.
>=20
>    The "church visible" is the worldly manifestation of christian religion
> in organizations, hierarchies, clergy, buildings etc.  The "chruch
> invisible" is the deeper mystical elements that would exist even if
> all churches were destroyed.
>=20
> >Severain is a torturer who goes on a journey to his new place of work, on
> >the way he picks up a gem which appears to have magic powers, meets a
> >variety of people, arrives at his job, leaves his job, goes to war, beco=
mes
> >an emperor.  Which book of the New Testament should I pick up to compare
> >these events with?
>=20
>    Wolfe has written in one of his essays about Jesus the carpenter, who
> like many carpenters in his time, may have been called upon to make a
> cross for some other person's execution.  You may feel it's silly, but
> this are Wolfe's words, not mine.   I think that TBOTNS is an "ascending
> Christology", a story about a person who grows into the role of
> Incarnation.  But that's just my view.
=09
	I have to agree with James Jordan's take here (after Wolfe talked him
out of the gnostic universe with Sev. as Antichrist) and say that Severian
isn't an Incarnation, but a "Christian" figure--he works out the acts of
Christ's life, but is, as it were, participating in Godhead rather than bei=
ng
part of it himself.

> >>In what sense is the New Sun an
> >>eschatological completion?  It's the opposite--it starts things up, and
> >>prevents the icy/entropy future of Abaia & co.
>=20
>    Well, it depends upon your eschatology.  We only see what happens in
> the physical world.  Maybe they're all partying it up in Heaven.  The
> fact that on Earth the world is restored to a fecund state seems to be
> a good thing.   It's a renewal.
>=20
> >I don't understand what you mean by point (A).  Did not the coming of the
> >New Sun kill every human on the planet save a few here and there?  Oh, a=
nd
> >the genetic breeding stock thoughtfully supplied by the Hieros.  As for
> >point (B), Silk cannot restore Christianity unless he knows what it is;
> >that involves somehow learning about, and then believeing in, the death,
> >resurrection, etc.  Until Silk (or Sev) starts witnessing, again, we're
> >going to have to agree to disagree.
>=20
>     The New Sun didn't kill everyone, just lots of people.  And that is
> not an absolutely bad thing if you believe in an afterlife, since=20
> *everyone* is going to die anyway.  (You may not like this argument, but
> it is an inevitable consideration in any theology involving life after
> death.)   "Christianity" can survive in some sense even if no one hears
> about some guy from Nazareth.  In this world there is still the story of
> the Conciliator, who reconciles the created world with the Pancreator,
> and suffers in the process.  There is still a sense of incarnation.
>=20
>     You seem to be saying that there is no Christianity in Sev's world
> without televangelists.  I think that Wolfe is saying that Christianity
> is woven more deeply into the nature of things, and that our understanding
> of the ultimate Christianity may be shallow.
>=20
> >What are these underlying patterns of salvation?  In UOTNS the survivors
> >are:  Sev, an undine, two men and two women of indeterminate character, =
who
> >may be very nice people, but are not Christians because they don't belie=
ve
> >in Christ. =20
>=20
>     In certain Christian theologies, that's not necessary.  The clams on
> Mars have never heard of Christ, but this doesn't mean that (in this view)
> that they don't live in a universe created by the Christian God and that
> some day there would not be a clam Conciliator. =20
>=20
>     (I nominate the "clam Conciliator" for silliest concept on the
> listserver this year.)
>=20
> >The underlying pattern of salvation that I see is that human
> >beings apparently chosen (or bred) for some purpose have been deposited =
by
> >the Hieros on the planet after the original population has been
> >exterminated.  I certainly hope that this isn't a sign of the Christian =
God.
>=20
>    So God can only work via a Holy Zap?  If he guides a doctor to heal
> someone's arm rather than doing it supernaturally, that's not holy?  God
> can work in mysterious ways.  Or maybe not.  Wolfe is often ambiguous.
>=20
> >A new chance for whom?  99.99% of the planet is dead!  The choice between
> >Ushas may be the lesser of two evils, but that shouldn't blind us to the
> >fact that it *is* evil.
>=20
>     How can it be evil?  Evil is the willful infliction of unecessary pai=
n.
> You've said that the other choice is worse.  Now you can ask why a
> beneficent God would allow the Earth to get to that state, to force such a
> choice,  but that's a different question. =20
>=20
>     *Everyone* dies.  The very very scary thing about religion is that it
> allows for "greater goods" that seem to allow killing.  (Read Chesterton.)

	True--although I hardly think Chesterton would have hurt a fly unless
it were in defense of something he loved that was under mortal attack (Wolfe
loves the story of his buying a pistol on his wedding day to "defend his
wife").  Of course, any civil order that allows war under certain circumsta=
nces
allows for "greater goods" that allow killing.  Which includes most religio=
ns
and all states I can think of.  In the 20th century at least, the "greater
goods" of the state have the numbers--off the top of my head somewhere on t=
he
order of 100 million of their own citizens exterminated by the various atte=
mpts
to bring a secular eschaton/Utopia to poor old Urth--hence, I'd imagine, BO=
TNS
seeming to imply that although war against the Ascians is necessary and even
good, the Ascians themselves are human and to be pitied (and fought "for").
--=20
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (adgroce at eos.ncsu.edu)
Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)
'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President
608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce

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