This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman

Gerry Quinn · 20 Feb 2011, 01:17 · from 2011-February.txt.gz

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From: gerryq at indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 01:17:41 -0000
Subject: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman
References: <AANLkTim2PO7XbNhMCSNsQFD+G26dUtjo9jpXn+rZxbnj at mail.gmail.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1102171746280.5118 at orpheus.qimr.edu.au>	<4D5FB71F.20309 at verizon.net><5181ED219FF74EF1BDB8C50887DD0D3C@jill>	<4D5FEF67.5000408 at verizon.net><ED16EFA2156E4216A258524558AD3BBC@jill>
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Message-ID: <6C096BDBBBE843F3BA14199093D10E39@jill>

From: "David Stockhoff" <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> On 2/19/2011 12:59 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
>> From: "David Stockhoff" <dstockhoff at verizon.net>

>> Not really, since 'lepton' is now an English word.  Still, he's clearly a 
>> lightweight ;-)

> No question of that. But "lepton" is still a Greek word in origin. By 
> using a Greek word out of its context (not sure if it existed at all in 
> Greek, but since the meaning is new it hardly matters), he performs an act 
> similar to Wolfe's.
>
> Is this a more subtle point than I thought, or do you see what I mean and 
> just disagree? I have no doubt Lepton would indeed make that argument, but 
> my point is more or less that Lepton is an obtuse, pedantic moron.

Maybe... but I think if you tackled him on this subject you would be 
fighting him on his home ground, because he can make a reasonable case, even 
if it is obtuse and pedantic!  In principle he may recognise 'lepton' only 
as an English word.

>> The language Thea mentions is clearly present-day English.  So the 
>> timeline is like:
>>
>> <really ancient language> (not mentioned)
>> -----
>> -----
>> <Latin> (not mentioned)
>> <English>  (referenced by Thea)
>> -----
>> -----
>> <'Terminus Est' language> (translated to Latin by Gene Wolfe)
>> <Severian's language> (translated to English by Gene Wolfe)
>>
>>
> I did misunderstand. Now that you lay it out, it is pretty much what I 
> think: the language of the dawn men is certainly older than the language 
> that confuses "present" and "gift." And "Latin" is a contemporary dead 
> language, however closely its lapidary utterances resemble Latin phrases 
> we know.

No... we are the dawn men, or their close ancestors.   Our descendants will 
colonise Mars in a few centuries.  A little later, perhaps a thousand  years 
from now, Jonas will set sail on a Korean starcrosser.  It is our language 
that confuses 'present' and 'gift'.

Actually there is an interesting point regarding English and Latin I hadn't 
noticed before.  Thea says "When the dawn men went to red Verthandi, which 
was then called War", she is in a sense conflating English and Latin (our 
versions), because Mars is the Roman god of War, and thus could be taken as 
Latin.

All this means is that she is talking about the very distant past - English 
and Latin are very close together from the perspective of Severian's time. 
What Wolfe transcribes as Latin is, I think, something much closer to 
Severian's time than our dawn languages.

Incidentally, there seems to be a slight language inconsistency in that 
Severian does not find Typhon's language archaic, or at least he does not 
mention it.  Yet Typhon lived something between 350 and 2000 years before 
Severian's time (depending on whether the Whorl travelled at relativistic 
speeds or not).  One would expect considerable changes, even in a culturally 
fossilised society.

- Gerry Quinn

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