This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman

David Stockhoff · 20 Feb 2011, 01:52 · from 2011-February.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:52:59 -0500
Subject: (urth) This Week in Google Alerts: story with Gaiman
In-Reply-To: <6C096BDBBBE843F3BA14199093D10E39@jill>
References: <AANLkTim2PO7XbNhMCSNsQFD+G26dUtjo9jpXn+rZxbnj at mail.gmail.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1102171746280.5118 at orpheus.qimr.edu.au>	<4D5FB71F.20309 at verizon.net><5181ED219FF74EF1BDB8C50887DD0D3C@jill>	<4D5FEF67.5000408 at verizon.net><ED16EFA2156E4216A258524558AD3BBC@jill>	<4D601B1E.80307 at verizon.net>
	<6C096BDBBBE843F3BA14199093D10E39@jill>
Message-ID: <4D6073FB.9020100 at verizon.net>

On 2/19/2011 8:17 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
>
> From: "David Stockhoff" <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>> On 2/19/2011 12:59 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
>>> From: "David Stockhoff" <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>
>>> Not really, since 'lepton' is now an English word.  Still, he's 
>>> clearly a lightweight ;-)
>
>> No question of that. But "lepton" is still a Greek word in origin. By 
>> using a Greek word out of its context (not sure if it existed at all 
>> in Greek, but since the meaning is new it hardly matters), he 
>> performs an act similar to Wolfe's.
>>
>> Is this a more subtle point than I thought, or do you see what I mean 
>> and just disagree? I have no doubt Lepton would indeed make that 
>> argument, but my point is more or less that Lepton is an obtuse, 
>> pedantic moron.
>
> Maybe... but I think if you tackled him on this subject you would be 
> fighting him on his home ground, because he can make a reasonable 
> case, even if it is obtuse and pedantic!  In principle he may 
> recognise 'lepton' only as an English word.

I guess then I will stay out of physics, and hope that he stays out of 
book discussions!
>
>
>>> The language Thea mentions is clearly present-day English.  So the 
>>> timeline is like:
>>>
>>> <really ancient language> (not mentioned)
>>> -----
>>> -----
>>> <Latin> (not mentioned)
>>> <English>  (referenced by Thea)
>>> -----
>>> -----
>>> <'Terminus Est' language> (translated to Latin by Gene Wolfe)
>>> <Severian's language> (translated to English by Gene Wolfe)
>>>
>>>
>> I did misunderstand. Now that you lay it out, it is pretty much what 
>> I think: the language of the dawn men is certainly older than the 
>> language that confuses "present" and "gift." And "Latin" is a 
>> contemporary dead language, however closely its lapidary utterances 
>> resemble Latin phrases we know.
>
> No... we are the dawn men, or their close ancestors.   Our descendants 
> will colonise Mars in a few centuries.  A little later, perhaps a 
> thousand  years from now, Jonas will set sail on a Korean 
> starcrosser.  It is our language that confuses 'present' and 'gift'.
Sorry, I had a 2-year-old on my lap when I wrote that. I meant to say, 
the language of the dawn men is certainly that language. We are the dawn 
men.
>
> Actually there is an interesting point regarding English and Latin I 
> hadn't noticed before.  Thea says "When the dawn men went to red 
> Verthandi, which was then called War", she is in a sense conflating 
> English and Latin (our versions), because Mars is the Roman god of 
> War, and thus could be taken as Latin.
Correct. She does not see Latin(ate languages) and English as distinct.
>
> All this means is that she is talking about the very distant past - 
> English and Latin are very close together from the perspective of 
> Severian's time. What Wolfe transcribes as Latin is, I think, 
> something much closer to Severian's time than our dawn languages.
Yes.
>
> Incidentally, there seems to be a slight language inconsistency in 
> that Severian does not find Typhon's language archaic, or at least he 
> does not mention it.  Yet Typhon lived something between 350 and 2000 
> years before Severian's time (depending on whether the Whorl travelled 
> at relativistic speeds or not).  One would expect considerable 
> changes, even in a culturally fossilised society.
>
Perhaps a language that is used to rule several worlds lasts longer than 
Latin, which ruled only part of one. But yes, Severian or his translator 
appears to have glossed over that. Typhon should have had some 
unimaginable archaic accent.


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