Ultan's grammar quip

David Stockhoff · 14 May 2011, 12:37 · from 2011-May.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 08:37:54 -0400
Subject: (urth) Ultan's grammar quip
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Certainly Ultan would be a grammar nazi, and certainly the placement of 
"mostly" is ambiguous. But does all this address Ultan's joke?

How do these strike you in terms of Ultan's completion of Severian's 
sentence:

1. Most of the people Palaemon teaches are apprentices, but not grammar.
2. Most of what Palaemon does is teach, but not grammar.
3. Most of the teaching is done by Palaemon, but not grammar.

#1 doesn't work at all. #2 and #3 are marginal at best.

On 5/13/2011 4:23 PM, Jason H wrote:
> James,
>
> Good ear, and I think I now agree with you as to what Sev meant. But I 
> wouldn't say "the placement of 'mostly' is ambiguous".  If we want to 
> be really strict, there are right and wrong placements, depending on 
> the meaning of the sentence.
>
> Here are three possible meanings:
>
> 1. Most of the people Palaemon teaches are apprentices.
> 2. Most of what Palaemon does is teach.
> 3. Most of the teaching is done by Palaemon.
>
> I still think that to a strict grammarian like Ultan, Sev's statement 
> is only correct if he means (1). (Which he doesn't, hence the error.)
>
> If Sev had meant (2) (as I originally thought), he should have said 
> "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us apprentices."
>
> If Sev had meant (3) (which, I agree with James, is what he really 
> does mean), he should have said something like "Mostly Master Palaemon 
> teaches us apprentices." (Although I guess "Master Palaelmon mostly 
> teaches..." works here too.)
>
> Is this splitting hairs in the most absurd way? Of course! I'm just a 
> mortal trying to get the Master Librarian's little joke.
>
>
> -Jason
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com 
> <mailto:crushtv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 5/13/2011 1:33 PM, Jason H wrote:
>>     I agree that Severian's grammatical error occurs in " Master
>>     Palaemon teaches us apprentices, mostly", but I have a different
>>     take. There's nothing inherently wrong with the "us apprentices",
>>     grammatically or stylistically. People often misuse "us" vs. "we"
>>     in this setting (as James says), so our suspicions here are
>>     raised, but Severian's use is correct. So why does Ultan imply
>>     that he didn't learn grammar?
>>     I think that the problem is the placement of "mostly" (although
>>     for a different reason from what David says). It needs to be
>>     adjacent to the word it modifies. The correct statement is
>>     "Master Palaemon mostly teaches us apprentices." That is, the
>>     main thing that Palaemon does is teach: he "mostly teaches". In
>>     contrast, "teaches us apprentices, mostly" really means that he
>>     teaches different kinds of people, and most of them are
>>     apprentices (but e.g. there might be some journeymen that he also
>>     teaches). I don't think this is what Severian means.
>
>     I don't think that is what Sev is saying. He is saying "Although
>     Gurloes sent me, my training is PRIMARILY received by
>     Palaemon...but not entirely. I consider myself Palaemon's
>     apprentice, if I had to choose one." It is true that "mostly" is
>     ambiguous here. So it the use of "us apprentices". The placement
>     of "mostly" is ambiguous and so is it's usage in the first place.
>
>
>     J.
>
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