Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants

Sergei SOLOVIEV · 28 May 2011, 20:51 · from 2011-May.txt.gz

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From: soloviev at irit.fr (Sergei SOLOVIEV)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:51:33 +0200
Subject: (urth) Problematic element in chronology - Red Giants
In-Reply-To: <87E792FA008E4A679A9EFA68176C4976@jill>
References: <87E792FA008E4A679A9EFA68176C4976@jill>
Message-ID: <4DE16055.2060503 at irit.fr>

Dear Gerry,

please, have a look at Red Giants (final stage of evolution of sun-like 
stars). Obviously,
the sun in the "BotNS" entered this stage - the atmosphere of the star 
becomes very large
and red (the temperature drops, but the total luminosity is much 
greater). There are many such stars
in our vicinity. The dim star mentioned by Silkhorn maybe thousands 
light years away.
(Red giants, like Aldebaran, that are 50 - 60 light years from here, are 
among the most
bright stars.)

It does pose other problems, I agree. Red giant may have a diameter like 
Venus orbit,
and if Urth were at the same distance as Earth, it would be burned (even 
if the
temperature of the surface of the star is less). I don't know whether 
Gene Wolfe
did take all this physics into account, maybe not, but I am sure he did know
about red giants.

Possible explanation. In Typhon's time or earlier the technical power of 
humanity
seems to be sufficient to make the distance of Urth from the Sun greater, to
prevent its burning or swallowing by the Sun. Maybe it was done. Notice 
that in the BotNS there is
no clear indication how long is their year, I don't remember anything about
the names of the months, that there is 12 months (or other number, maybe
17), how much days is in one month, how much days in a year, how much
hours in one day. There are watches - yes - but I think all concrete 
indications
are eliminated (deliberately?) by GW. The mass of the sun when
it becomes Red Giant doesn't change, so the orbital period for
more distant orbit has to be longer. By the way, if their year is longer,
it may explain the "too rapid" ascencion of Severian to power.

After the end of the rule of Typhon the technical might dropped 
considerably,
and the humans could probably do nothing any more about the orbit of
Urth etc. The energy output of Red Giants is very unstable, so,
if later it got weaker, the Urth may become cold place threatened
by glaciers, and nobody had energy or knowledge to do anything.

I think (I repeat myself) that GW tried to be very careful about scientific
details. Do not take for granted the idea that inside the old sun there is
a black hole. It is something that is presented as common idea in Severian's
times, but I don't see from the text that GW himself thinks that.
I sounds "mythologically" beautiful, but it was easily accessible 
information to GW
in 70-es, and even more easily later, that black hole will swallow very 
quickly
all the atmosphere of the red giant. It would by the way be an explosive 
process
that would burn everything a couple of light years around
(kind of supernova). An encounter of a real black hole
with a white fountain would be also extremely explosive - not just tides.

Remark. I think that my views about the importance of human and 
psychological
side are slightly distorted on the list, I do not reject mythological 
and "gnostic" meaning
at all, I just don't agree when the abstract symmetry of these schemas does
contradict the truth of characters described by GW as I see it from
the text. (I'll try to develop it in another mail.)

Best regards

Sergei

Gerry Quinn wrote:
> I got to thinking about the distance from Urth to Blue today and after 
> looking up some stuff I found a problem.
>  
> On Blue, SilkHorn explains to prospective astral travellers that they 
> can, if they peer for some time, see a dim red star - this is of 
> course Sol, etiolated by the black hole inside it. 
>  
> I looked up some stuff, and as near as I can tell, they following is 
> true:  Sol (currently) has an absolute magnitude of 5.  That means it 
> would be barely visible from 50 light years away.  Red Sol will be 
> even dimmer.
>  
> But if the Whorl only travelled 50 light years, relativistic time 
> dilation will have been fairly insignificant.  Specifically, there's 
> no reasonable way that you could 'lose' more time than the distance 
> you travelled in light years.  On this basis, the Whorl was launched 
> no more than 350 or so years ago in Urth time.
>  
> On the whole, I put this down to Wolfe not fretting too much about the 
> details - I still think there is supposaed to be a relativistic time 
> dilation factor of up to five or six, even if it is contradictory in 
> some ways (it also fails because the energy needed to accelerate the 
> Whorl to such a velocity would have been more than enough to replace 
> the solar energy deficit, and Typhon would surely have repurposed the 
> Whorl drive for this).
>  
> But if the physics is correct, the Whorl has little in the way of time 
> dilation, and Typhon lived only about 350 years before Severian.
>  
> - Gerry Quinn
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
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