Typhon's nature

David Stockhoff · 10 Oct 2011, 17:00 · from 2011-October.txt.gz
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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:00:21 -0400
Subject: (urth) Typhon's nature
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Jonas and Typhon are twins in the sense that they both physically ride 
other bodies. Jonas does appear to then ride another body (Miles) 
without any visible technological means of doing so. The door is thus 
opened for Typhon to do the same. But Jonas clearly cares little for his 
"body." Typhon definitely cares a lot.

On 10/10/2011 11:38 AM, larry miller wrote:
> Yeah the passage is really ambiguous.  Ive just been stuck on the idea
> that Typhon was an alien since rereading BotNS the second time and
> learning later of Wolfes naming strategum cemented the idea in my
> mind.  All we know for sure is that Piaton is not Typhons original
> body.  The links between Scylla and Typhon suggest that maybe his
> original form was that of a megatherian.  I think Jonas telling the
> beans story in the same  chapter of the Piteous Gate (most likely
> caused by the undines swimming through the river beyond the wall)  is
> Wolfes sly way of hinting at a connection.  Growing from a bean as
> being a way to explain cloning from a frozen embryo seems to fit with
> high technology passed off as magic throughout the books.  The fact
> that Wolfe leaves Jonas story unfinished is another big sign that
> readers are supposed to speculate on these things.
>
> On 10/10/11, David Stockhoff<dstockhoff at verizon.net>  wrote:
>> On rereading, it is somewhat ambiguous---
>>
>> "No, I was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meantit. Nor was
>> Piaton grafted to me. I was grafted to him. "
>>
>> ---but still leads to only one clean conclusion. Typhon is referring,
>> with "as I am" to his apparent two-headed condition, since Severian
>> plainly asked about it, but "or born at all, as you meantit" must be an
>> aside referring to something Severian did not refer to except with the
>> word "born" itself. Severian has no reason to think Typhon was NOT born,
>> so his assumption is the usual kind of birth (but including c-section as
>> a matter of course, since he is familiar with it). In addition he asks
>> how Typhon got that way.
>>
>> But Typhon does not think of his current configuration, with his head on
>> a whole body, as "himself" but rather as his riding a "steed." He means:
>>
>> ---I was not born with no body of my own
>> ---Furthermore, I was not born at all, with body or not
>>
>> The rest is a response to Severian's "was Piaton's head attached to
>> you." Thus, Typhon was not originally born in the usual manner.
>>
>> Any other interpretation would require that Typhon thinks of himself as
>> two-headed. He doesn't. If he did, he would mean:
>>
>> ---I was not born two-headed
>> ---I was surgically made two-headed
>>
>> So that's not what he means.
>>
>> On 10/10/2011 8:43 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2011 3:30 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 10/9/2011 8:05 PM, larry miller wrote:
>>>>> Or maybe that particular body of Typhons was grown from an embryo (Or
>>>>> one of Jonas beans) and then downloaded into it when his original body
>>>>> died?  I dont have the book on hand but I also seem to remember him
>>>>> commenting on the longevity of physical bodies in contrast to the
>>>>> longevity of consciousness.  Perhaps this wasn't in reference to human
>>>>> bodies but to his original alien form.  Any thoughts on his other
>>>>> comment about sending his thoughts out?
>>>> If Typhon was a clone to begin with, and  could transfer his
>>>> consciousness at will, why bother with the head graft? Just possess
>>>> another clone brother.
>>>>
>>>> Consequently, I believe that Typhon's disclaimer of being born must
>>>> have been originally a reference to his then surgically assembled
>>>> nature. His thoughts being sent into far places could easily have
>>>> been him spying through the remaining technological outposts similar
>>>> to the speaking machines in the Matchin Tower and Valeria's reception
>>>> hall. He may have had telepresences there to keep his ruling face au
>>>> courant.
>>> Except that this would require "outposts" at the south pole and under
>>> the sea.
>>>
>>> True that any embryo-implanting technology should encompass cloning,
>>> since we know cloning was used to create the uhlans, and therefore the
>>> head graft would seem to be rendered unnecessary by mind-transfer
>>> technology. However, we don't know for sure whether mind-scanning is
>>> fatal (as in TFHoC) or not, and Typhon is not a guy who would want a
>>> second Typhon running around even briefly. Doesn't that make it a
>>> little less simple? (As opposed to godlike possession powers, which
>>> clearly are not called for here---we know Pas was created by scanning.)
>>>
>>> I don't think the head graft could possibly be taken as a form of
>>> "birth" in any sense. Something more like actual birth is meant.
>>>
>>>
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