Undine's nature

larry miller · 17 Oct 2011, 22:40 · from 2011-October.txt.gz

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From: biglar1984 at gmail.com (larry miller)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:40:15 -0400
Subject: (urth) Undine's nature
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W9AA6AE1291EC9E1948DCFCFE40 at phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W9AA6AE1291EC9E1948DCFCFE40 at phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAMBsQ=LGQ66qi-Pp72kDggDwOrBrKr0HFA5Vr6x5FbVRJJVySw at mail.gmail.com>

interesting idea.  I also agree with you that Severa is Jolenta.

On 10/17/11, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> There is some interesting convergence of a couple threads which might
> warrant
> a new thread title.
>
>>David Stockhoff: I like the idea of Baldanders giving himself gills. But
>> then who and
>>what is he? Why is he doomed to grow so large? Would it not work just as
>> well if he's
>>of Juturna's race and size, and those are natural gills Sev mistook for
>> scars? Are we
>>to believe Juturna must come up for air like a whale? What is her race
>> anyway: is she a
>>large human who swims deep, or a fish evolved to be humanoid? Let's get our
>> assumptions
>>straight.
>
> This is an interesting new idea I hadn't ever heard before. It is a bit
> cryptic how
> Baldanders started as a small man suddenly appearing lakeside a couple
> generations ago.
> Could he have been like Idas then? There is some other tangential evidence
> to support
> this theory I think, which can be seen in a further consideration of
> undines, below.
>
> I also kinda lean against the idea.  Idas is an adolescent undine but she
> still appears as a tall
> slender human. Moreover, the words of Dr. Talos suggest Baldanders created
> his doctor to
> maintain all the delicate hormonal adjustments which allow his growth to
> continue. Of course
> I think Dr. Talos is disingenuous on how Baldanders can breathe underwater
> but for some reason
> I am inclined to believe him regarding Baldanders' growth and the
> implication that it is unnatural.
>
>
>>Gerry Quinn: Juturna is not human, I believe, nor fish either.  She has
>> been created or spawned by one
>>of the sea monsters.
>
> I agree. Specifically Abaia, if we may believe the dream-undines' claim of
> being his daughter-brides.
> That term is surely meant to provoke our instinct for incest revulsion but
> when you have a giant
> creature who can reproduce asexually and who may be sequentially
> hermaphroditic like Tzadkiel, it
> starts to seem a bit more natural (as incest was the natural mating pattern
> of the pagan god pantheons).
>
> Moreover I think the end of RttW supports this idea. Great Scylla is shown
> budding off a small army
> of female-shaped beings. What else could this be other than a production of
> undine-like beings. Actually
> I sort of think Great Scylla may actually BE Abaia. Scylla is associated
> with snakes and fish and Abaia
> is an eel. Fish-snake-eel provides a reasonable connection from which
> meaningless gender pronouns should
> not divert our attention.
>
> A question which seem always danced around be never addressed is regarding
> who is Typhon's daughter really,
> Scylla or Cilinia? Though the process isn't clear to me, I do have a strong
> sense that his daughter has a
> dual essence. Perhaps there was cloning involved but I think one iteration
> of her died as a girl, but another
> entered the sea and kept growing into the monster which became Great Scylla
> (and perhaps Abaia). Somewhere
> in Long Sun there is mention of the planet Scylla herself ruled.
>
>
>>Jeff Wilson: His (Severian's) water breathing after the flood I believe is
>> a mark of kinship with
>>Juturna, along with her ability to access the corridors of time. In fact, I
>> would say that it is as likely
>>that Juturna is Sev's sister as Merryn. "Where is Severian's sister?"
>> "She's right there, 100 feet tall!
>>How could you miss her?"
>
> I've heard that theory before but it is quite a minority opinion I think. I
> think it has merit because there
> is the sexual attraction between Severian and Juturna which I find a
> necessary requirement for identifying
> Severa. I think the complete absence of sexual attraction, along with some
> other evidence, rules out Merryn .
>
> So, I'd at least consider Juturna a likely relative of Severian's. I still
> think Jolenta is the best candidate
> for being Severa. We are conspicuously not given her name when she is a
> waitress and her lack of history allows
> her to have been an expelled witch. Jolenta could be a stage name and while
> she doesn't have much of a sex
> drive, she seems more attracted to Severian than to any other man. (it is
> indirect but something about the
> buxom, red haired appearance of Jahlee in RttW seems like a clue to Jolenta
> and away from Merryn also).
>
>
>>I don't recall anything to suggest the skull Severian finds after the flood
>> is literally his own.
>
> I don't find it a strong conclusion either but some do and my comments on
> the matter were meant for them. 		 	   		
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