Undine's nature

David Stockhoff · 19 Oct 2011, 16:10 · from 2011-October.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:10:33 -0400
Subject: (urth) Undine's nature
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W274FF41515857FB8E2375FCFEA0 at phx.gbl>
References: <SNT123-W274FF41515857FB8E2375FCFEA0 at phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4E9EF679.1050708 at verizon.net>

On 10/19/2011 11:20 AM, Lee Berman wrote:
>
>> David Stockhoff: Is the term "angels" used here in its sense of "agents of good"? I'm not
>> sure I see the slightest hint of morality or ethics anywhere in Briah,
>> on any "side." Then again, I don't see angels themselves as particularly "good."
>
>
> Hm. Yes. I agree Hiero-types, like their earth angel analogs, do a lot of cruel, even horrific
> things.
>
> We understand that Judeo-Christianity has demonized and uglified the deities of competing
> religions for doing the same sorts of things their own God and angels have done or sometimes
> for doing things which are not harmful but just culturally offensive to Judeo-Christians.
>
> I think Wolfe has done this in the BotNS.  One side possesses superhuman beauty while the other
> side is (imho) old and shrivelled or gigantic and monstrous. Since both sides do horrible things
> I think we are meant to understand that we/Severian are supposed to choose a side based not on
> our own personal moral judgements but rather on an intuitive feeling of "rightness". In other
> words we (and Severian) must suspend our horror at the bad things we see happening around us and
> rely on faith that the "right" side will ultimately produce the best result.

Yes.

>
>> Again, I don't see any worthwhile distinction between fallen and
>> unfallen technology. Both processes are unspeakable perversions but it
>> is their users (and uses) that distinguish them.
>
> I agree. Where we may disagree is that I tend to think that the Autarch's potion is, like alzabo,
> a product of the Cumaean and provided by Father Inire. And these characters are not (anymore) on the
> side of the hiero-types.
>
> But I could be wrong. Perhaps the hiero-types do provide the autarch his potion and Severian's serial
> memories are important in his ascension to the New Sun. Maybe there is some discontinuity. Perhaps
> Wolfewas thinking the Autarchy and the memories were important in writing the first four books. But
> in UotNS, the memories and the Autarchy seem useless at best and even a bit of a hindrence to his
> New Sun function. (for example, the mutineers use a mock Autarch image in an attempt to divert
> Severian from his New Sun function. The scene is cryptic but that's how I read it).

You're right about that. And it may be that certain tech reaches Urth by 
certain pathways---in fact this is necessary. There isn't a galactic 
Amazon where you can order anything you want, like the shipping guild in 
Dune.

But the cacogens don't forbid anything. They know about the alzabo and 
allow it and don't seem to care. So even if Inire is "fallen" and he 
devised the Autarchic transfer procedure (quite likely given his 
position), it doesn't seem to offend or go against the hierodudes' 
sensibilities.

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