vanished people=Hieros

James Wynn · 10 Nov 2011, 17:18 · from 2011-November.txt.gz

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From: crushtv at gmail.com (James Wynn)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:18:53 -0600
Subject: (urth) vanished people=Hieros
In-Reply-To: <1320942761.92088.YahooMailClassic at web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1320942761.92088.YahooMailClassic at web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EBC077D.3010605 at gmail.com>

>> James Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>> Question: Wouldn't the Green Urth theory be easier if Green
>> were in Urth's very distant past? That would argue that the
>> Dionysus references are a clue to how the myth got there in
>> the first place?*~  I understand that you want the City
>> of the Inhumi to be Nessus but the clues are not
>> overwhelming. Perhaps the Rajan's seeming parallel
>> description of the city and Nessus was only an implied
>> connection because they are both cities on the same planet
>> or coincidentally at the same place.
>>
>> *~ A Greek mythographer (I don't remember which one)
>> attested that although Dionysus as the "newest" of the
>> Olympians, he was actually much older...maybe the oldest of
>> the gods.
>>
>> J.
> Marc Aramini wrote:
> My only concern here is: why the past?  How did they get there if they left at Typhon's time?

They got there with the help of the Neighbors. They got there with the 
help of the Heirogrammates. Any number of ways, intentional and 
unintentional.

>    Obviously with time travel there could be past or present, but why would the past be any easier than the future?

Well, personally, I think the hybridization of the sentient and 
non-sentient life (if true) is referred to only in the the vaguest 
possible terms. In order to overcome just ONE of the major obstacles in 
the Green Urth theory, I have to accept the Hybrid theory whole. 
Strategically, I'd like a little more wiggle room. I'd like to be able 
to consider the Green Urth theory separate from the Hybird theory. 
Putting the Neighbors and Inhumi in the distant past allows that.

Q: "Where are the Neighbors in Severian's time?"
A: They are every tree he encounters because the Neighbors are away in 
dream-travel where most or all have died, leaving soulless trees that 
continue to reproduce.

Q: How did the wildlife of Blue become so alien?
A: Because the evolved on Verthandi in the very distant past before it 
lost its atmosphere.

A major problem with Green being the future Urth is "how far in the 
future"? More than 3000 years after Typhon, I'd say, for it to have been 
later than the end of Urth of the New Sun.

> Why would he go forward in time when he's thinking about Green before the evil of the inhumi and winds up on Urth?

Because Rigiglio is thinking of Nessus and the places are the same. From 
the position of the travelers, Nessus is in their relative past. Are 
they going forward in Time or back? It's no harder than going back. If 
Green is Urth, then for the Rajan to meet Severian, he has to be 
traveling back in time or forward in time.

> It makes no more sense at best and still has all the same problems as the Green is future urth, in my opinion.

It totally eliminates one of the obstacles to the Green Urth theory 
without the *need* for a hybidization theory  which...
1) you are not claiming Wolfe has confirmed.

2) Is just a really big walnut to swallow whole.

3) Could still be true even if Green is in Urth's past.

On the other hand, the Ancient Green Urth theory...

1) Feeds into the extreme archeology theories of ancient human 
capabilities and civilization to which Wolfe is quite inclined.

2) Provides narrative rationale (rather than merely thematic ones) for 
the Dionysus references.

> [...]
>
> The man in the colorless cloak with a stiff birdlike gait sure seems like a familiar figure, doesn't he?  Then again, the blue glow and the spider like fellow on Blue seemed familiar too, but in the interview Wolfe said that it was not urth/ushas, 2 urths, or 2 ushas so I don't know what to say.

Well, the cloak looks familiar. I'm not sure about the gait. But 
Severian is a Time Traveler. Why would he not be found in the distant past?

J.

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