vanished people=Hieros

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes · 10 Nov 2011, 17:23 · from 2011-November.txt.gz

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From: danldo at gmail.com (Dan'l Danehy-Oakes)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:23:52 -0800
Subject: (urth) vanished people=Hieros
In-Reply-To: <4EBC077D.3010605 at gmail.com>
References: <1320942761.92088.YahooMailClassic at web161803.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4EBC077D.3010605 at gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ8=rtj_N+oGmmo-eHYGJK-3_F22s2PO3-00Su7b-kwnKn76qA at mail.gmail.com>

I don't think Green can be Urth's past, because that would put Blue
somewhere in the Solar System's past, and I don't think that works.

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 9:18 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> James Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com> ?wrote:
>>>
>>> Question: Wouldn't the Green Urth theory be easier if Green
>>> were in Urth's very distant past? That would argue that the
>>> Dionysus references are a clue to how the myth got there in
>>> the first place?*~ ?I understand that you want the City
>>> of the Inhumi to be Nessus but the clues are not
>>> overwhelming. Perhaps the Rajan's seeming parallel
>>> description of the city and Nessus was only an implied
>>> connection because they are both cities on the same planet
>>> or coincidentally at the same place.
>>>
>>> *~ A Greek mythographer (I don't remember which one)
>>> attested that although Dionysus as the "newest" of the
>>> Olympians, he was actually much older...maybe the oldest of
>>> the gods.
>>>
>>> J.
>>
>> Marc Aramini wrote:
>> My only concern here is: why the past? ?How did they get there if they
>> left at Typhon's time?
>
> They got there with the help of the Neighbors. They got there with the help
> of the Heirogrammates. Any number of ways, intentional and unintentional.
>
>> ? Obviously with time travel there could be past or present, but why would
>> the past be any easier than the future?
>
> Well, personally, I think the hybridization of the sentient and non-sentient
> life (if true) is referred to only in the the vaguest possible terms. In
> order to overcome just ONE of the major obstacles in the Green Urth theory,
> I have to accept the Hybrid theory whole. Strategically, I'd like a little
> more wiggle room. I'd like to be able to consider the Green Urth theory
> separate from the Hybird theory. Putting the Neighbors and Inhumi in the
> distant past allows that.
>
> Q: "Where are the Neighbors in Severian's time?"
> A: They are every tree he encounters because the Neighbors are away in
> dream-travel where most or all have died, leaving soulless trees that
> continue to reproduce.
>
> Q: How did the wildlife of Blue become so alien?
> A: Because the evolved on Verthandi in the very distant past before it lost
> its atmosphere.
>
> A major problem with Green being the future Urth is "how far in the future"?
> More than 3000 years after Typhon, I'd say, for it to have been later than
> the end of Urth of the New Sun.
>
>> Why would he go forward in time when he's thinking about Green before the
>> evil of the inhumi and winds up on Urth?
>
> Because Rigiglio is thinking of Nessus and the places are the same. From the
> position of the travelers, Nessus is in their relative past. Are they going
> forward in Time or back? It's no harder than going back. If Green is Urth,
> then for the Rajan to meet Severian, he has to be traveling back in time or
> forward in time.
>
>> It makes no more sense at best and still has all the same problems as the
>> Green is future urth, in my opinion.
>
> It totally eliminates one of the obstacles to the Green Urth theory without
> the *need* for a hybidization theory ?which...
> 1) you are not claiming Wolfe has confirmed.
>
> 2) Is just a really big walnut to swallow whole.
>
> 3) Could still be true even if Green is in Urth's past.
>
> On the other hand, the Ancient Green Urth theory...
>
> 1) Feeds into the extreme archeology theories of ancient human capabilities
> and civilization to which Wolfe is quite inclined.
>
> 2) Provides narrative rationale (rather than merely thematic ones) for the
> Dionysus references.
>
>> [...]
>>
>> The man in the colorless cloak with a stiff birdlike gait sure seems like
>> a familiar figure, doesn't he? ?Then again, the blue glow and the spider
>> like fellow on Blue seemed familiar too, but in the interview Wolfe said
>> that it was not urth/ushas, 2 urths, or 2 ushas so I don't know what to say.
>
> Well, the cloak looks familiar. I'm not sure about the gait. But Severian is
> a Time Traveler. Why would he not be found in the distant past?
>
> J.
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-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

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