Pike's ghost

David Stockhoff · 29 Nov 2011, 14:17 · from 2011-November.txt.gz

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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 09:17:25 -0500
Subject: (urth) Pike's ghost
In-Reply-To: <1322547833.19876.YahooMailNeo at web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <SNT123-W67AD0CB4BFD6D632EECA6CFB30 at phx.gbl>
	<1322547833.19876.YahooMailNeo at web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ED4E975.4030303 at verizon.net>

On 11/29/2011 1:23 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> From: Lee Berman<severiansola at hotmail.com>
>> If a random someone has grown a fetus from a plant root for no apparent reason, I
>> can't see that as a more interesting interpretation than one which explains
>> who created that fetus and for what purpose.
> Okay.  I can't see yours as an interesting interpretation.  That's a matter of taste.
>
> However, I am saying that because of the Levi quotation, or just because a  fabulous mandrake root is something human-like but not really human, I don't think it's valid to say that the only possible reason for Wolfe to use the word was as a connection to Typhon.  Indeed, I think it's quite possible that such a connection never entered his mind.

Sorry, what's the Levi quotation?

It's quite possible, except that the whole cloning/in 
vivo/possession/scanning trope was plainly already in Wolfe's mind, and 
as such maybe the LS/SS arcs as well. Typhon is a major connection 
between Severian in the Citadel and the embryonic Silk in the Whorl. So 
it stands to reason that Typhon created it as a failed experiment on the 
way to devising his colonization strategies, but it's not a critical 
plot point.
>
>> As larry says, mandrake and Mandragora
>> both point to Typhon (as homunculus ties to Dr. Talos, but we won't complicate
>> the matter with that, for now).
>   
> Why don't they point to Ymar?  The two Biblical references to mandrakes are in connection with Rachel and the maiden in the Song of Songs, both types of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology (or I can find at least one source that says that about each one).  I don't think I need to make the last connection.

Actually, please do. I don't follow this or know the references at all. 
Why Ymar? (I did just find the Rachel ones but don;t know how to 
interpret them.)
> Or why not the Sleeper?  Shakespeare refers to mandragora as a soporific, including in a fairly famous passage from /Othello/.

Meaning "the sleepers" on the Whorl? Or another sleeper?
> Or Severian in his first life or two?  The most famous quotation about a mandrake starts "Go and catch a falling star", which immediately brings to mind the slingers' song, which Wolfe said illuminates--darkly--Severian's past and future.

This quotation?:

"Go, and catch a falling star, / Get with child a *mandrake* root, / 
Tell me, where all past years are, / Or who cleft the Devil's foot. 
<http://69.59.157.161/quotation/go-and_catch_a_falling_star--get_with_child_a/261610.html>" 


John Donne quotes <http://69.59.157.161/quotes/john_donne/>(English 
<http://69.59.157.161/nationality/english_authors/> poet, 1572 
<http://69.59.157.161/birthday/january_24/>-1631 
<http://69.59.157.161/birthday/march_31/>)

That is indeed striking.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=N-IemS8Uqn0C&pg=PA233
>
> (You might prefer to associate the falling star with Lucifer and thus with Satan, who Typhon echoes.)
>
>>> larry miller: The question is who that someone is.
> Not necessarily.  Maybe we're meant to leave it as a mystery and concentrate on the interaction between Severian and the homunculus.

I agree. But the Donne quote, if it is a key link, does lead to the 
image of impregnating a mandrake root, which takes us back to who and 
why, and what resulted from it.
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