Father Inire

Lee Berman · 02 Dec 2011, 01:13 · from 2011-December.txt.gz

This is the message as the crawl holds it, before anything here touched it. What the conversation shows has been through ingest: transfer encodings decoded, attachments dropped, quote markers repaired, and the archiver’s ? resolved into quotation marks and dashes. Those repairs are judgements and some of them are wrong, which is what this page is for. Email addresses are obscured here as they are everywhere else on the site, so it is before our repairs rather than byte for byte.

From: severiansola at hotmail.com (Lee Berman)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 20:13:12 -0500
Subject: (urth) Father Inire
Message-ID: <SNT123-W24CE35296C160BB3851A3FCFB60 at phx.gbl>

>Gerry Quinn: As interstellar arms dealers, if that is one of their (hierodule) 

>roles on Urth

Agreed, it is one of their roles.

>also apparently do not choose sides. They seem to take the view that conflict 

>leads to progress.

Well, they might choose Severian over Baldanders. Isn't fully clear. But they

do clearly value conflict. The hammer, anvil and tongs of warfare are tools used 

to forge humanity. Let's not forget that violence and conflict instigated by 

hiero-types was a primary driver of the events on Yesod (not to mention the Ship).

>This angle would seem to require that you identify angels.  You mean the interstellar 

>arms dealers, right?

Correct. When I say angels, I mean the Bibical kind not those found on Christmas cards.

Think Angel of Death slaying Egyptian children, Cherubim with flaming sword guarding

Eden. The four archangels leading the Hebrew army to victory on the battlefield. Uriel,

Michael, Raphael and good old Gabriel (Dr. Talos' role) on the frontlines, 

>Would an angel say: "Is all the world a war of good and bad? Have you not thought 

>it might be something more?"

I think the answer to that is obvious.

>If the Hierodules are supplying weapons to both sides (of course we?re not certain of 

>that, I think ? perhaps some other group of cacogens is supplying them, in which case 

>it might be *they* who are Inire?s cousins), they would seem to have a worse claim on 

>our sort of morality than Inire.

It might have some substance if you base your hyphothetical "other group" on some 

unmentioned level of Biblical angels or something like that. Otherwise, they are just 

a non-textual Gerry invention or extrapolation. Nothing wrong with that I guess.

As far as angelic morality, you've already explained it in your argument above. Neither

angels nor God are subject to judgement by human morality. They are higher beings and

have their own "mysterious ways" to justify what they do. They act as a scientist acts

injecting carcinogens into thousands of animals and dissecting them for a higher cause.

The animals are a lower class of being and have no choice but to submit to judgement of

their superiors when it comes to moral decisions. Same for the people of Urth, who are

as dead as a pack of lab rats.

>Is there any evidence that Inire has been around for 1000 years, or anything like it?

He has been vizier to all the autarchs. How many years of them have there been?

>And if he knows that Severian will bring the New Sun, he doesn?t apparently intend to do 

>anything to stop it.

He reacted in the same way that Jupiter and Dionysus reacted to the coming of Jesus. Perhaps

they knew they were about to be swept away, perhaps they didn't. But what were they supposed

to do about it?

>Indeed, it appears they don?t care who lives or dies so long as human knowledge advances. 

That might be a way to look at it. I think "spiritual advancement" is a better way of

understanding what is really going on here. The bottom line is that pretty much every 

human on Urth does die. We had a similar situation during a Flood here on earth.

>They would willing have worked simultaneously with Josef Mengele and the Manhattan Project.

God allowed both those projects to continue simultaneously, didn't He? They both killed a lot

of people.  Are you implying that one of these actions was "good" and the other "bad"? Or that 

both are bad? Both good? I'm not quite catching your meaning on this one.

An unofficial mirror of a public mailing list · about & removal requests · download the archive · before the list · original archive at urth.net