Gummed-Up Works or Got Lives?

David Stockhoff · 16 Dec 2011, 19:31 · from 2011-December.txt.gz
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From: dstockhoff at verizon.net (David Stockhoff)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:31:12 -0500
Subject: (urth) Gummed-Up Works or Got Lives?
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Yes. Although Howard touched a bit on horror too, it was never the main 
point, and Howard, Burroughs, and Fritz Lieber codified the s&s genre 
(which was often enough swords VS sorcery) more than anyone.

Too bad Lovecraft never wrote about a lone swordsman---that would really 
have been something. He'd have to be a madman who never gets close 
enough to the creeping horror to kill it. Kind of like a detective who 
is always too drunk to solve murders but somehow has an interesting 
career nevertheless.

On 12/16/2011 1:27 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:
> I tend to think of Robert Howard and Tolkien as two differing and 
> interesting streams that find their mutual source in Dunsany (at least 
> in so far as each of the former embody modern S&S).  Again, it's as if 
> these two streams reunite into one at Wolfe.  (You can also do this 
> sort of 'flow chart' from Dunsany with Lovecraft and Tolkien as the 
> two streams reunited in Wolfe - this time in relation to horror.)
>
> -DOJP
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 5:23 PM, David Stockhoff 
> <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
>     And Dunsany and Wilde.
>
>
>     On 12/16/2011 12:21 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>
>         Yes, and there is plenty of "high" fantasy that precedes JRRT
>         also --
>         notably William Morris.
>
>         On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Larry
>         Miller<decanus1284 at gmail.com <mailto:decanus1284 at gmail.com>>
>          wrote:
>
>             Dont forget that sword and sorcery also has roots in the
>             planetary
>             romances of burroughs who we know Wolfe was aware of.
>              There was also
>             the Jirel of Joiry  and the Zothique stories that are the
>             earliest
>             sword and sorcery tales.  Or the Worm Ouroborous.  They
>             all predate
>             Tolkien.  And Conan being a cheap comic book derivative?
>             Come on!
>
>             On 12/16/11, Lee Berman<severiansola at hotmail.com
>             <mailto:severiansola at hotmail.com>>  wrote:
>
>                     Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: You are absolutely correct, I
>                     meant "religious
>                     morality" and should
>                     have said so explicitly.
>
>                 Ah, well, not really. I understood but I'll confess
>                 that I just wanted an
>                 excuse to
>                 further discuss Tolkien with someone who knows more
>                 than I do about the
>                 subject. :- )
>
>                     Antonio Pedro Marques: The discussion was about
>                     what it looked like on the
>                     _surface_. If
>                     you only find out at the end of the story that a
>                     character seems to fit a
>                     fairy tale,
>                     then the fairytaleness isn't really part of the
>                     scenery, is it?
>
>                 Scenery! That's an interesting point. For me, it was
>                 fairly early in BotNS
>                 that the S&  S/
>
>                 fairy tale aspects hit me. What came later (much
>                 later) was the recognition
>                 of real religious
>                 content in the story, albeit with an intensely gnostic
>                 flavor.
>
>                 For years I had wondered why Wolfe put "gnostic
>                 symbols" in the Witches
>                 Tower. The problem
>                 was my own limited knowledge of gnosticism. The impact
>                 of Alexander's brief
>                 but mighty
>                 empire on all levels of Western culture can't be
>                 ignored, including
>                 religion. Our legends of
>                 witches, vampires, manbeasts shapeshifting gods,
>                 monsters etc. can be traced
>                 back to that time
>                 period, in that part of the world.
>
>                 But anyway, does the fact that my realization of the
>                 religious aspect of
>                 BotNS came later mean
>                 it is not a religious story? Or even that religious
>                 trappings are not part
>                 of the scenery?
>
>                     Maybe for me s&s is a more restricted thing than
>                     for others. I think of
>                     Conan the Barbarian
>                     rather than LotR as the prototype. I'm not even
>                     sure I find LotR all that
>                     s&s, given the serious
>                     'historical' feeling I get from it, nor the
>                     Hobbit, given its (deceivingly)
>                     children's-tale style.
>
>                 Great observation and recognition Antonio. Perhaps I
>                 am not alone in having
>                 assumed that LotR was
>                 more of a prototype or archetype of S&  S while Conan
>                 is more of a cheap
>
>                 comic book derivative.
>                 A cultural bias? Conan (like Tarzan) is a European
>                 character created by an
>                 American, while LotR seems
>                 somehow more authentic and refined- high brow British
>                 characters created by
>                 an Englishman.
>
>                 But, a check online about Robert Howard, the creator
>                 of Conan (and who
>                 pre-dates Tolkien), produces
>                 this blurb:
>
>                     With Conan and his other heroes, Howard created
>                     the genre now known as
>                     sword and sorcery, spawning
>                     a wide swath of imitators and giving him an
>                     influence in the fantasy field
>                     rivaled only by J. R. R.
>                     Tolkien and Tolkien's similarly inspired creation
>                     of high fantasy.
>
>
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