Gummed-Up Works or Got Lives?

Gerry Quinn · 17 Dec 2011, 23:54 · from 2011-December.txt.gz

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From: gerry at bindweed.com (Gerry Quinn)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 23:54:56 -0000
Subject: (urth) Gummed-Up Works or Got Lives?
In-Reply-To: <4EED2143.9010706 at verizon.net>
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From: David Stockhoff 

On 12/16/2011 9:02 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:

> > However, it has no obvious magical or even ?magical? powers; the only 
> > time we might ascribe such things to it is when Baldander?s energy 
> > mace is shattered (as is the sword) in striking it. The only 
> > fairy-tale-like element, really, is the sword being there for use at 
> > the right time; and it?s hard to think of any story involving 
> > adventure that such things don?t happen. We might wonder whether 
> > previous Severians got smashed by Baldander?s mace.
> > It?s a hero?s sword more than a magic sword, IMO.

> No question. It runs against the cliche, but carries it through 
> nevertheless. Just as Elric's sword marks, determines, and hurts and 
> even betrays him, so does Severian's.
It doesn?t betray him ? it is destroyed saving him.  But that?s by the by.

> > > And what do you mean, "Dorcas was under no enchantment"? Did you read
> > > the book?
> > Yes. To what enchantment do you refer?
> That which kept her preserved and asleep for some 20 years. (You can 
> argue that this did not happen, and I agree. But then there are two 
> narratives here, aren't there? And one of them is informed by various 
> tales about preserving sleep underground, and women in lakes.)

That?s a circular argument.  ?Dorcas is like Sleeping Beauty.  Therefore she was under an enchantment, rather than dead.  Therefore she is like Sleeping Beauty.?  


> > > If you don't know fairies live underground, then you know nothing of 
> > > the topic upon which you so boldly discourse.
> > I know some fairies live underground, as do some men, and some other 
> > creatures. Are you saying that all fairies live underground? Pardon me 
> > if I ask for a reference.
> Again? Try the Mabinogion.

You already admitted in another post that fairies can live almost anywhere, depending on the particular complex of legends.


> >  Let us 
> > suppose every story to be a thread in a large multi-dimensional space 
> > of story elements. A couple of points on the thread of Dorcas?s story 
> > lie relatively close to a couple of points on the Sleeping Beauty 
> > thread, where ?relatively close? includes ?dead? as being close to 
> > ?under an enchanted sleep?. As I?ve pointed out, we could find many 
> > similarly close threads in all kinds of works; I just mentioned an 
> > example at random.

> You're comparing Buffy to Wolfe? Is there a question?

Why shouldn?t I?   Both Buffy and BotNS are large works that play with elements of many fantasy genres; in that at least they are very alike.  They are similar in that you can find episodes that are weakly like Sleeping Beauty, but not strongly so ? I don?t recall any strong SB reference in Buffy either, though I could have forgotten or missed one.  The point is that any such work will have threads passing near to points in a very large volume of story space, and therefore the fact that a thread passes near a point is not in itself of much significance.


> > We could even find more examples in BotNS! Does Valeria not also have 
> > some correspondences to Sleeping Beauty? And what about Typhon? Shall 
> > I waffle on about how in the Typhon scene Wolfe mashes up Sleeping 
> > Beauty and Beauty and the Beast, with Severian taking the part of the 
> > Prince in the former and Beauty in the latter?

> Now you're getting it! Yes, Valeria is a princess in a tower. Typhon is 
> a king sleeping under a mountain. But these don't quite work, do they? 

No more than Dorcas quite works.

> Hmm. Hmm. Maybe they aren't supposed to, quite. But given how little we 
> know of Valeria, it's a sound pattern if not a solid data point. 
> Whatever could it mean?

For me, three Sleeping Beauties, none of which quite work, means the Sleeping Beauty detector is oversensitive and yielding false positives.


> If you have serious thoughts about Wolfe and Disney, lay them out 
> here---don't save them for your therapist.

When I think of Sleeping Beauty, I think of the fairy tale, probably versions I read in childhood.  I?m not even sure I?ve seen the film (I do remember Snow White).


- Gerry Quinn
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