S&S vs. SF in BotNS

Lee Berman · 23 Dec 2011, 14:10 · from 2011-December.txt.gz

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From: severiansola at hotmail.com (Lee Berman)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:10:59 -0500
Subject: (urth) S&S vs. SF in BotNS
Message-ID: <SNT123-W98B0702D909373A9BF56ACFAB0 at phx.gbl>

>Gerry Quinn: Sorry, but that is incorrect.  The epistemology by which we 
>learn the truths of science is different and more robust than the epistemology 
>which led to the type of explanations you are talking about.

So you say. An understandable sentiment of faith from a believer of the religion
of science. Likewise believers in other modern religions often think their own
current belief in God is light years more advanced than the religion of the ancient 
Greeks. Gene Wolfe explicitly disagrees.

I am only suggesting that in 3-4000 years, humans may be doing something to understand
the universe which is so advanced it lumps our modern science and ancient religion into 
the same category. (of course even that new tool will be subject to the limitations of 
the human and human-created minds).

>He (Gene Wolfe) doesn?t worry too much about accurate science.  But natural laws are very 
>important to him.

This sounds like a contradiction to me. Anyway, the example of the inhumi really achieving
escape velocity by using flaps of skin and flying unprotected through space seems to violate
numerous natural laws of physics and biology. Until we have seen them do it, Inhumi lying is 
the parsimonious explanation. I think Wolfe believes in lying a lot more than he believes in
flying reptiles in the void.

>> There?s a difference between science and the study of Zeus and witches

>Antonio Pedro Marques: In abstract and technical terms, yes, but not really in the people who
combine these terms with many other things in order to do real life work.

>Jeff Wilson: You're overlooking reproducible results. Preindustrial crop hexings are 
>not reproducible by witches, while electrons are tamed well enough that we can reproduce 
>Zeus-strength lightning as necessary and prevent it from striking houses when it occurs naturally.

I don't overlook or discount reproducible results. They are a human thing to want. But ancient
religions were based on it also. Do something to anger Zeus and within a few months you'll get
a thunderstorm. You might have to wait a few years after angering a witch but you'll eventually
get your crop failure also.

Science currently rules much of the faith and beliefs of humanity because the reproducible results
are faster and more accurate than superstition. But they are not perfect. Lightning still strikes
unpredictably. Disease and earthquakes and famine also. When a more perfect system of predicting and
controlling these events is invented, science will be dropped like Zeus worship was.

In my (and perhaps Antonio's) view, math and science are human tools created by humans and subject to
all the error and fallibility of the human brain. I know some people, perhaps some here, feel that math
and science transcend humanity and are above it, creating a window to a higher, universal truth.

I think this is more evidence that science and religion are very much the same. Priests and scientists
both feel they are in touch with a superhuman truth, which is sometimes worn as mantle of superiority 
above those not privy to knowledge found in holy or scientific scriptures. But at the end of the day,
we are all, even scientists and priests, just a bunch of guys trying to get some food, stay comfortable,
and in our spare time, make a little sense of the world.

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