Urth Net
Digest urth.v028.n073
David Duffy · 03 Nov 1999, 00:17
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From: David Duffy <davidD at qimr.edu.au> Subject: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n073 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:17:02 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <urth-v0028-0353 at digest.urth.net> X-Urthmirror-Source: http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0028/0353.shtml MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable VDOn Tue, 2 Nov 1999 urth-errors at lists.best.com wrote: >=20 > -------------- BEGIN urth.v028.n073 -------------- >=20 > 001 - =3D?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=3D2 - Inire's "Mirrors" > 002 - "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey - Re: Inire's "Mirrors" > 003 - Patri10629 at aol.com - Re: the superb level of discourse h= ere > 004 - "Alice Turner" <akt@attgl - Fairy Tale alchemy > 005 - Alex David Groce <Alex_Gr - Re: (urth) Re: the superb level of = discourse here > 006 - "Greene, Carlton" <CGreen - Technology as Magic and Metaphor (l= ong) > 007 - Dan Parmenter <dan at lec.co - Botanical Garden Curator > 008 - "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch@ho - Re: (urth) Re: the superb level of = discourse here > 009 - "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch@ho - Re: (urth) Fairy Tale alchemy > 010 - =3D?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=3D2 - Science and Miracles >=20 > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.1 --------------- >=20 > From: =3D?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=3D20Gevers?=3D <vermoulian at yahoo.com> > Subject: Inire's "Mirrors" > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:02:42 -0800 (PST) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >=20 > I'm glad to see that my "Fairy Tale Logic" posting > ended our dry patch; I'm also gratified that mantis > agrees with me in part, a rare event. But to take up > the cudgel again: I still contend that Inire's > description of the working of his mirrors is > intentional gibberish on Wolfe's part, to the extent > that he wishes it to be read as gibberish, in contrast > with all the intended-to-be-plausible explanations of > FTL technology in SF. An ideas-driven writer like Poul > Anderson or Isaac Asimov desires his FTL conception to > be believed, to be given the benefit of a very large > doubt; but for a style-driven writer like Jack Vance > or Wolfe, an FTL-exposition is a CONCEIT, a rhetorical > contrivance, serving a metaphorical or humorous > purpose. Inire's mirrors should be interrogated on > that basis.=20 >=20 > Incidentally, in defense of mantis' view of Typhon as > alchemical symbol: the point of alchemy for many was > the conversion of their base flesh into perfect matter > blessed with immortality. Typhon's aim in usurping > Piaton's body is also extended life. >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.2 --------------- >=20 > From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> > Subject: Re: Inire's "Mirrors" > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:10:11 -0600 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >=20 > Nicholas Gevers wrote: >=20 > >>I'm glad to see that my "Fairy Tale Logic" posting > ended our dry patch; I'm also gratified that mantis > agrees with me in part, a rare event. But to take up > the cudgel again: I still contend that Inire's > description of the working of his mirrors is > intentional gibberish on Wolfe's part, to the extent > that he wishes it to be read as gibberish, in contrast > with all the intended-to-be-plausible explanations of > FTL technology in SF. An ideas-driven writer like Poul > Anderson or Isaac Asimov desires his FTL conception to > be believed, to be given the benefit of a very large > doubt; but for a style-driven writer like Jack Vance > or Wolfe, an FTL-exposition is a CONCEIT, a rhetorical > contrivance, serving a metaphorical or humorous > purpose. Inire's mirrors should be interrogated on that basis. << >=20 > To say nothing of the "white fountain". I would like to see the > scientific explanation for the mating of a man and a larval "angel" > producing an extra-universal remedy for a black hole in a dying sun. >=20 > Roy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.3 --------------- >=20 > From: Patri10629 at aol.com > Subject: Re: the superb level of discourse here > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 04:32:47 EST > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >=20 >=20 > In a message dated 11/2/99 12:43:53 AM, Mitchell Bailey writes: >=20 > << As you probably can tell, I'm not a literature scholar. I'll have to > paraphrase Sev's line on this subject: if I sometimes manage to seem a > peer of the esteemed contributors to this list, or at least one whose > company does not shame them (perplexes? annoys?) it is to a significant > extent due to that erudition to which I've been exposed here. >> >=20 > No, I couldn't tell, and, yes, I know *exactly* what you mean. If ever th= ere=20 > was a forum which enhanced and increased my pleasure with Wolfe's work, w= hy=20 > humbling me, this is it. What a privilege it is to eavesdrop. Hats off to=20 > you, mates. >=20 > Love Mr Ansley's Oz reference. >=20 > A sidenote: Responding to my constant complaint that parades are not=20 > organized in response to, and full-page New York Times reviews are not=20 > devoted to each new Wolfe book, (and a national holiday not declared=20 > specifically for a masterwork like ON BLUE'S WATERS), a friend replied: "= With=20 > those godawful covers they slap on his books they're scaring off anybody = with=20 > half a brain who doesn't already know he's great." Comments? >=20 > Actually the cover of OBW is sort of Wolfe in a nutshell--the siren's one=20 > grotesque feature is hidden from view, the animal's leg's too. What? What= 's a=20 > few limbs between friends? >=20 > I must say again: We are not all lit crit/ sci fi (uh-oh I said the naugh= ty=20 > word)/intellectual giants (I mean besides Mantis and Alga), nerds and=20 > nerdettes obsessed with minutia (I'll forgive the geographers for the=20 > moment). "Minutia." Hey! Maybe That could be my name! (sorry) Is Wolfe s= o=20 > wrenchingly good? So demanding? Am I naive and alone in thinking that h= is=20 > art is ultimately accessible? >=20 > best, >=20 > Patrick O'Leary >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.4 --------------- >=20 > From: "Alice Turner" <akt at attglobal.net> > Subject: Fairy Tale alchemy > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:04:40 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >=20 > Mantis remarked, in discussion of fantasy v. SF: >=20 > > "Magical," yes, but most specifically it is "alchemical." > > > > If you pick up a modern book on alchemy, chances are it will have some = of > > those great old woodcuts regarding the stages of The Great Work: which = is > > "turning lead into gold" for the laity. Red Lion, Green Dragon, Black > > Raven, Virgin Milk--all sorts of wild stuff. Anyway, in the midst of a= ll > > this Chemical Wedding, there appears a potent symbol: a two-headed bein= g, > > usually a big muscular creature with a king's head and a queen's head > (both > > crowned, iirc). Mind you, this is an =3Dallegorical=3D representation = of some > > funky chemical process --it isn't meant to be some sort of Frankenstein= 's > > monster that literally appears. > > > > But this double-header is =3Dnot=3D the end-product: it is not the > > philosopher's stone. It is only a stage along the way. So, true to fo= rm, > > it must be "killed" so that the next mode can emerge--this woodcut shows > > the critter being put to bed in a tomb. > > > > THUS, in addition to the Satan's Temptation of Christ elements in the > > scenes with Typhon and Severian, I have reason to believe that there is= an > > even stronger thread of alchemical thought and tradition represented: o= ne > > that links up with other keystones of the text to form an adamantine > chain. > > > > I strongly suspect that Damien Broderick knows exactly what I'm talking > > about. (I also know that alga is rolling her eyes at all this!) >=20 > Well, no. Actually I agree---how not. The Gothic elements refer directly > back to alchemy, most specifically in Baldanders's castle by the lake with > his "experiments" aided by "elementals" from the air and his great > familiar/catamite/clone (and the whole parody, almost Pythoneque, in which > Baldanders is both Frankenstein and creature, with Dr. Talos as a "beard"= ). > Also much later when we find the homunculus/mandragora at the Citadel. Bu= t, > as I have said before, these are almost certainly filtered from the direct > Gothic tradition (mostly English) by Wolfe's reading of Goethe's Faust, P= art > II (the one people don't read so much), which is a weirdly hallucinogenic > "take" on the Gothic/alchemical novel with its castles and laboratories a= nd > "philosopher's stones" and transmutations. >=20 > Typhon too appears in this general air of the Gothic. >=20 > And mantis, I don't roll my eyes at your allusions, they start to roll wh= en > you seize them (the allusions, not the eyes) with your mandibles and > brutally worry them into virtuality. >=20 > -alga >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.5 --------------- >=20 > From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> > Subject: Re: (urth) Re: the superb level of discourse here > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:21:00 -0500 > In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 02 Nov 1999 04:32:47 EST." > <199911020934.BAA25639 at lists1.best.com> >=20 > Patrick-- >=20 > Well, part of my point in the whole modernism debate was that, because he > avoids their techniques, Wolfe is at the least pretty darn accessible for > a modernist. While I like that kind of thing, I understand the people wh= o=20 > throw ULYSSES and THE SOUND AND THE FURY down and never pick them back up. >=20 > The main thing with Wolfe is, you DO have to pay attention. Which some r= eaders > aren't very keen on. FREE LIVE FREE and those darned morning glories cat= ches > a lot of people sleeping (although if you don't figure out what's going on > before "all is revealed" anyway you are not paying attention on a much bi= gger > level). >=20 > I'm really not a fan of the OBW cover. On the other hand, the Long Sun c= overs > were OK, if nothing spectacularly good. But they all look like *gasp* Sc= ience > Fiction Book Covers, which is honest advertising but not too good for get= ting > random non-SF people who would enjoy Wolfe to read him. >=20 >=20 > "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:= 32 > -- > Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu) > Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department > 8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066 > http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.6 --------------- >=20 > From: "Greene, Carlton" <CGreene2 at hunton.com> > Subject: Technology as Magic and Metaphor (long) > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:38:03 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D"iso-8859-1" >=20 > Nicholas Gevers wrote: >=20 > >>I'm glad to see that my "Fairy Tale Logic" posting ended our dry patch; > I'm also gratified that mantis agrees with me in part, a rare event. But = to > take up the cudgel again: I still contend that Inire's description of the > working of his mirrors is intentional gibberish on Wolfe's part, to the > extent that he wishes it to be read as gibberish, in contrast with all the > intended-to-be-plausible explanations of FTL technology in SF. An > ideas-driven writer like Poul Anderson or Isaac Asimov desires his FTL > conception to be believed, to be given the benefit of a very large doubt; > but for a style-driven writer like Jack Vance or Wolfe, an FTL-exposition= is > a CONCEIT, a rhetorical contrivance, serving a metaphorical or humorous > purpose. Inire's mirrors should be interrogated on that basis. <<=20 >=20 > Roy wrote: >=20 > <<To say nothing of the "white fountain". I would like to see the scienti= fic > explanation for the mating of a man and a larval "angel" producing an > extra-universal remedy for a black hole in a dying sun. Roy >> >=20 > Two points. First, I see no reason to give the boot to "scientism." > Second, and more importantly, "scientism" and technology-as-metaphor are = not > mutually exclusive, but rather mutually enhancing. >=20 > Wolfe's explanations of technology are often mysterious and incomplete, b= ut > Wolfe's resort to complete, detailed explanations for certain technologies > implies that even the really strange examples have some explanation to th= em > that has not been made entirely clear to the reader. I agree that the > explanation of Inire's mirrors reads like sleight of hand, but wasn't it > supposed to be a simplistic explanation of a very complicated technology > given to a child? (Maybe I've forgottent the context in which the speech = was > delivered). As to Typhon and his grafted head, its important to remember > that the pieces of humanity's scientific knowledge that have survived the > aeons are weird and patchy throughout the books -- maybe a head graft was > the most rational means at Typhon's disposal to achieve his goals. We kn= ow > very little about the operation itself or the medical knowledge available= in > Typhon's time. It boots us little to say that the operation makes no sen= se > because of what we know about medical science in the 20th century -- many > of the technologies described in the TBOTNS assume capabilities (and > limitations) which we can neither verify or reject based on current scien= ce. > Instead, we take from Wolfe's attempt to provide or hint at some scientif= ic > explanation for these phenomenon the *flavor* that these are miracles of > technology rather than magic. In sum, the fact that many of the > explanations of particular technologies are shadowy, unclear, or apparent= ly > paradoxical given current scientific understanding does not mean that we = as > readers are not intended to, and should not, understand that some rational > explanation lies lurking in the background. I think we are. >=20 > More importantly, maintaining the idea that some scientific explanation f= or > these phenomenon exists strengthens, rather than weakens, the power of th= ese > technologies as metaphors. If it were clear that items like Typhon's two > heads and apheta's quasar-producing, larval lust were meant simply as pur= e, > fluffy fanstasy, existing only as a metaphorical allusion, their power as > symbols would be less. Instead, the idea that they are simultaneously > scientifically explainable events and spiritual metaphors with real power > creates a sense of destiny and religious meaning in our physical universe. > In TBOTNS every action, object, and interaction reveals some significant > truth about the Increate. Sev's discovery of a thorn on a (Pacific!) bea= ch, > which is at once biological matter, a relic of real physical power, and a > revelation of the divine nature of physical existence, is an example of t= his > principle. >=20 > One last point: Given the above, it is interesting to note that the > technology of the heirogrammates, a technology infused with love and divi= ne > grace, is more obviously metaphorical and more difficult to explain > scientifically as physical technology, as Roy points out. My take on thi= s: > the closer we get to the divine, the more we understand that the physical > universe does in fact exist, but is intended as a functioning, scientific > metaphor for certain underlying principles, a particularly graceful way of > revealing spiritual truths. The heirogrammates pull the curtain aside on > this methodology in a way that we are not exposed to normally, explicitly > fusing technology and metaphor. In contrast, the sturdiest scientific > explanations in the books are given for items in the hands of the "godles= s" > exploiters of scientific knowledge -- Baldanders and Typhon. I always > understood this to mean that this was the sin makind was being punished f= or > -- the exploitation and achievement of god-like scientific power without = the > concommittant moral and spiritual development -- without the principle of > love or grace or what have you. Mankind is being punished for selling off > its emotions in furtherance of blind ambition. >=20 > I apologize if I am rambling here, but if I am, it is because I have been > inspired by the exceptional quality of the discussion on this list, and I= am > certainly grateful for the opportunity to contribute. >=20 > C/ >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.7 --------------- >=20 > From: Dan Parmenter <dan at lec.com> > Subject: Botanical Garden Curator > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:52:22 -0800 >=20 > Isn't Father Inire, the old BEM himself at least one of the curators > of the Botanical Garden? Damn, I don't have the text here. >=20 > D >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.8 --------------- >=20 > From: "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: (urth) Re: the superb level of discourse here > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:09:51 PST > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed >=20 > Hello, Patrick! >=20 > I also am enjoying this forum. >=20 > About the covers...I couldn't agree more. When I read The Book of the New=20 > Sun in paperback, I kept thinking, "What horrible cover art!" Especially = on=20 > Books II and III. Oh, I suppose the art isn't that bad...it's just=20 > incredibly cliche. It has "sword and sorcery/Conan/pulp fiction" written = all=20 > over it, to use a cliche. No self-respecting lit professor would have boo= ks=20 > with those covers on his/her bookshelf! >=20 > The Tor/Orb editions (the two-volume edition, I mean) of The Book of the = New=20 > Sun is a little better--the books are well put together, the covers look=20 > respectable, and they chose the two best samples of the cover art, at lea= st.=20 > My advice--give THOSE editions to your friends. >=20 > Patrick--I don't think you are either naive or alone in thinking Wolfe's=20 > work ultimately accessible. I can only speak for the Urth cycle and for a=20 > few of his short stories, myself (still have to read 5HC and Dr.Death as=20 > soon as I get the chance--the time, that is), but I find his work very=20 > accessible. Severian's narrative voice--like, say, Ishmael's voice in Mob= y=20 > Dick--draws the reader right in. >=20 > (On the other hand, not every one finds Moby Dick accessible.) >=20 > I'm not certain why some people "don't get" Wolfe's work. Is it the scien= ce=20 > fiction element? >=20 > Anyway, that's all I had to say. >=20 > --Daniel >=20 > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.9 --------------- >=20 > From: "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch at hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: (urth) Fairy Tale alchemy > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:14:14 PST > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed >=20 > alga and mantis, >=20 > I concede the point. You're right--I hadn't looked that carefully at the=20 > sequence at Baldanders' castle. The connection to Faust is definitely=20 > there--with the Homunculus, after all. >=20 > I suppose I hadn't really connected alchemy with the Gothic tradition=20 > before--maybe "Frankenstein" is the meeting point, then. >=20 > So...if Typhon is--in one sense--an alchemical allusion, what is the=20 > significance of the allusion? Is Typhon representative of a desire to=20 > perfect the human form (by defeating death)? >=20 > --Daniel >=20 > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >=20 >=20 > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.10 --------------- >=20 > From: =3D?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=3D20Gevers?=3D <vermoulian at yahoo.com> > Subject: Science and Miracles > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:34:11 -0800 (PST) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >=20 > I agree with other parties to our debate that the > ever-present possibility of scientific explanations > for events enriches NEW SUN, lending it rigour, > speculative depth, and metaphorical power. But as LONG > SUN makes clear, it is sometimes the possibility of a > miraculous explanation that is the most effective > literary device in Wolfe's work. I think that Wolfe at > times intentionally misleads his readers into byways > of scientific explication, in effect challenging them > to see the wood for the trees, the Word for the World; > when they fail to find secular explanations, or > contrive ones that are trivial and unsatisfactory, > they must perforce acknowledge the supremacy of the > miraculous.=20 >=20 > Another point: a miraculous explanation for a textual > incident doesn't entail capitulation to the > intellectually slack fluffiness of genre Fantasy > plotting. Wolfe intends us to understand supernatural > events as ultimately purposeful Divine interventions > or concessions, not as the random conjurings of elves > and wizards. >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com >=20 >=20 > --------------- END urth.v028.n073 --------------- >=20 >=20 > *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 | David Duffy. ,-_|\ | email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / * | Epidemiology Unit, The Queensland Institute of Medical Research_,-._/ | 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia v=20 *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/
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